So I’m about half-way through an 18 week marathon plan, and instead of my normal Tuesday night speed work interval session I decided to run a flat out 5K time trial.
This was partly on a whim, partly to guage where I’m at, partly to mix it up now that the weeks of heavier run mileage are piling up. I think a lot of it was just to get that feeling of all out racing since my last tri was in mid-August.
My question is - does a 5K time trial with a 2K warm up & 1.5K cool down have the same fitness benefits as say 12x400 M @ 5K race pace with 400 m jogs between? Or, does it have a negative impact due to the added stress on the legs?
(Ran a reduced 15 K long run on Sunday and took Monday off. Wedesday is my normal reast day.)
In the end, it won’t make much difference, but seeing how there are at least three different ways that 400’s @ 5k pace w/ 400 recoveries are nearly a waste of time if your goal is a marathon, the straight 5k was probably better depending what you meant by “time trial” .
And the point of speed work is to stress yourself, legs and all.
You’ll get more fitness benefit from a 5k time trial when training for a marathon. Added stress? No, just don’t run hard again the following day or two and allow your body to recover.
I’m following the Hansons’ plan since the reduced emphasis on the long run works better for my schedule right now. At this point in the plan it calls for 4.8 K of intervals at 5K pace once a week, so that’s what I’m doing. In a couple more weeks the plan shifts to slower speed and longer intervals (their term is strength work).
Is it the best way to train? Beats the hell of me, but I can get back to you in January.
By 5K time trial, I mean an all out race against the clock to put up the fastest 5K time I can (without paying the entry fee and dealing with race day logistics for a 20 minute race).
I can tell you that in less than ideal conditions and with a net up-hill route I knocked ~30 s off my 5K pb (yes, this is based on a Garmin so accuracy is not guaranteed). If there is anything at all to the McMillan calculators and the like (which I think there is), then improving 5K/10K speeds is important towards my longer term marathon goals. And so far this plan seems to be doing just that for me.
But, I’m getting side tracked here as I did not intend to discuss the merits of the plan, but rather whether there is any real benefit of an all out 5K effort mid-way through a marathon plan other than shits and giggles.
My question is - does a 5K time trial with a 2K warm up & 1.5K cool down have the same fitness benefits as say 12x400 M @ 5K race pace with 400 m jogs between?
The 5k has more - way more actually for just about every rec runner and triathlete. Many try and get too fancy with the running, when all they need is a weekly hard effort for about 20 - 25 minutes at or slightly above their tempo pace - along with their other steady state aerobic runs of varying distance. That’s why 5K races are gold and really are the foundation of all great distance running. But few seem to get or understand this.
Its a pretty good workout, but i’d cut back just a touch on the intensity, especially if you need to take a day or two of to recover as a previous poster suggested. 3 miles over 3 days isn’t marathon training and one of the hallmarks or Hansons trainig is to not skip days at least not often.
Did you feel good? How did the time compare to past times?
I think there’s nothing wrong with mixing it up. Your training plan isn’t gospel. As said above, a 20 minute tempo run is a great fitness builder. It’s nice to push the pace for extended periods of time.
Attempt at Boston I suppose. Pretty lame-ass answer, I know. But personally I need goals to keep my training motivation high and right now this is it. The first time I did one was because I found myself in the completely unexpected circumstance of having enough fitness to even contemplate it. The 2nd time was your typical fall marathon that many on this board do as a season wrap-up, but usually means jumping into the plan roughly half-way through.
This time I’m curious to see what I can do if I take 4 months and actually dedicate it to run training.
That said, I do actually enjoy the running and the training process as a whole.
That’s basically the blue print (in the context of >50 mpw, peaking above >70) that took me from 2:59 on a fast course (Chicago) to 2:49 on a hard course (New York). I’ll probably need more VO2 max work as I try to go below 2:45.
Indeed, most of my tempo work is 4-5 miles (~25-30 minutes). I think another pace that a lot of triathletes ignore are longer 1/2 marathon efforts. My running club does a lot of “tempo” workouts that will be ~3 miles at 1/2 marathon pace and then progressing to 10K pace for another 1-2 miles.
To your broader point, though, a lot of triathletes, especially those without running backgrounds, over-think things. They just need to run more (mostly easy) with one or two good hard efforts a week. A 5K is more than sufficient. Instead we read on this forum about all sorts of crazy complicated interval sets. To be honest, I couldn’t do them because I’d forget them unless I had a coach on the infield telling me what to do! It’s much easier for me to say 3 miles at X pace finishing with a mile at X-15 pace.
So the basic problem with your 400 set is that you are going too slow for the recovery. A long full recovery should be for very fast efforts, like you are training to race 5k’s and less. If you going to do intervals that revolve around your threshold, tempo or 5k pace that are designed to build a high aerobic threshold (for lack of a better term we can all agree on) you would be better off have a short active recovery. So if it were me, I would do something like 6-8 800’s @ your 5k pace with a 200 M recovery that is 2x your 5k pace, or a little less. Send on a consistent interval.
If you are going to do a time-trial, make sure your effort is consistent throughout and you are at your raggedy edge at the end, don’t start fast and fade.
My question is - does a 5K time trial with a 2K warm up & 1.5K cool down have the same fitness benefits as say 12x400 M @ 5K race pace with 400 m jogs between?
The 5k has more - way more actually for just about every rec runner and triathlete. Many try and get too fancy with the running, when all they need is a weekly hard effort for about 20 - 25 minutes at or slightly above their tempo pace - along with their other steady state aerobic runs of varying distance. That’s why 5K races are gold and really are the foundation of all great distance running. But few seem to get or understand this.
Can I ask why you are running a marathon?
What is your goal with running the marathon?
Are you aware of John “Hadd” Walsh’s training principles? If so, what are your thoughts?
In a nutshell (& correct me if I have it ass up), the longer the race you intend to do, the more important the aerobic system becomes, so the key part of training is raising your aerobic pace, with long slow runs being the key sessions & one of the key points is to never do your long runs too fast… is that how you read it?
You got a lot of good feedback here. I just want to point something that was mentioned above but not stressed enough.
There is no doubt that a 5k TT was of much better quality but also more stress than your 400s the way you structured it.
For a marathon runner 5k pace is sufficient and pace of choice for VO2max work. However, you chose a very short interval with very long rest. It defeated the purpose of your work.
400s with 400 recovery are prescribed for 5k/10k runners but at Daniels repetition pace that is roughly another 25sec per mile faster than 5k pace.
Marathon runner executing the 5k pace workout should focus on longer intervals with shorter rest, most at 1 mile duration with equal or lesser recovery prescribed by time. The longer the race distance the longer the 5k pace intervals should be.
5k TT or a 5k race have a great value in marathoners program. Great that you did it. Do it again down the road.
x2 – Also, 5ks are a great way to build mental toughness. There is no doubt that mental toughness makes the difference in the last 10k of the marathon.
