50-54 guys....100m and 400m times (running)

Triathlon Forum
1

Hey guys,

Interested in hearing how fast those of you in 50-55 can do a 100m and a 400m all out. Gotta have a legit excuse to weight train seriously the next year+ :slight_smile: I know Ken Lehner has put down some fast times being a former decathlete etc. Hand timed in spikes is fine :slight_smile: We’ll even allow IAAF illegal tailwinds (I think that is 2 m/s). Anyone going at 1.5xUsein Bolt for the 100m (14.39). I was happy to do a 2xUsein Bolt today (hand self timed no spikes, no starting blocks). Hoping to work my way down with a bit more specific training recovering from some nerve damage from an accident a few years ago and trying to get back full coordination. I figure it will only come with pushing my comfort envelope and putting the nervous system at the extent of its current abilities (or I might blow a body part in the process, but dumber things have been done).

Dev

2

Hey guys,

Interested in hearing how fast those of you in 50-55 can do a 100m and a 400m all out. Gotta have a legit excuse to weight train seriously the next year+ :slight_smile: I know Ken Lehner has put down some fast times being a former decathlete etc. Hand timed in spikes is fine :slight_smile: We’ll even allow IAAF illegal tailwinds (I think that is 2 m/s). Anyone going at 1.5xUsein Bolt for the 100m (14.39). I was happy to do a 2xUsein Bolt today (hand self timed no spikes, no starting blocks). Hoping to work my way down with a bit more specific training recovering from some nerve damage from an accident a few years ago and trying to get back full coordination. I figure it will only come with pushing my comfort envelope and putting the nervous system at the extent of its current abilities (or I might blow a body part in the process, but dumber things have been done).

Dev

Thanks Dev. Great way to eliminate my competition with pulled muscles, or long term injuries. I’ve long ago accepted that sprints are for either a) the young or the b) brave (and who don’t mind a nice juicy injury). I call that High risk, low reward.

Seriously though - you are my hero for even thinking of this!

3

Hey guys,

Interested in hearing how fast those of you in 50-55 can do a 100m and a 400m all out. Gotta have a legit excuse to weight train seriously the next year+ :slight_smile: I know Ken Lehner has put down some fast times being a former decathlete etc. Hand timed in spikes is fine :slight_smile: We’ll even allow IAAF illegal tailwinds (I think that is 2 m/s). Anyone going at 1.5xUsein Bolt for the 100m (14.39). I was happy to do a 2xUsein Bolt today (hand self timed no spikes, no starting blocks). Hoping to work my way down with a bit more specific training recovering from some nerve damage from an accident a few years ago and trying to get back full coordination. I figure it will only come with pushing my comfort envelope and putting the nervous system at the extent of its current abilities (or I might blow a body part in the process, but dumber things have been done).

Dev

Thanks Dev. Great way to eliminate my competition with pulled muscles, or long term injuries. I’ve long ago accepted that sprints are for either a) the young or the b) brave (and who don’t mind a nice juicy injury). I call that High risk, low reward.

Seriously though - you are my hero for even thinking of this!

On the one hand it may appear “high risk low reward”. On the other hand, there are many positive benefits to exercising one’s anaerobic system as we age because by doing so, you implicitly slow down aging. Of course, it is useless if you blow body parts (in which case in hunter gatherer society we’d become useless to the village), so I guess we have to do it with a degree of caution. Isn’t that why they have age graded times ? Also, it is kind of fun to be able to jump in for a game of soccer or touch football with the teenagers and not feel like you’ll totally fall apart with an injury. Maybe it comes down to “use it or lose it”, but the “use it” side needs to be done within reason.

This has nothing to do with triathlon time, more to do with what capacities are reasonable for a given age. For example, we know that sub 10 is an outstanding IM time for 50-54 on any course, but that same guy may have gone under 8:50 in his peak years. But nothing wrong with shooting for what one can do later in life. Just curious what the guys are doing at the anaerobic side of the spectrum.

PS. My sprint times are barely faster than what I’d hold for aerobic events, so the risk is lower. It was interesting reading David Epstein’s book where they found the bullk of elite soccer players are predominantly slow twitch muscle fiber…and it is not because they don’t sprint. It seems that the fast twitch guys never quite make it to the pros, because their fast twitch blows apart their body parts before they can get to pro level. Most of us on here are so past fast twitch, that the risk is a lot lower than we might think. One more interesting point…as we age we keep up our cadence just like young guys, but our stride length dramatically goes down. Why is our push off force declining so much more?

4

You have that right. I ran a leg of a 4x100 relay for a Community Olympics event when I was in my early 40’s. My legs hurt for days afterward. Can’t see it going any better now that in my 50’s.

5

Hey guys,

Interested in hearing how fast those of you in 50-55 can do a 100m and a 400m all out. Gotta have a legit excuse to weight train seriously the next year+ :slight_smile: I know Ken Lehner has put down some fast times being a former decathlete etc. Hand timed in spikes is fine :slight_smile: We’ll even allow IAAF illegal tailwinds (I think that is 2 m/s). Anyone going at 1.5xUsein Bolt for the 100m (14.39). I was happy to do a 2xUsein Bolt today (hand self timed no spikes, no starting blocks). Hoping to work my way down with a bit more specific training recovering from some nerve damage from an accident a few years ago and trying to get back full coordination. I figure it will only come with pushing my comfort envelope and putting the nervous system at the extent of its current abilities (or I might blow a body part in the process, but dumber things have been done).

Dev

Thanks Dev. Great way to eliminate my competition with pulled muscles, or long term injuries. I’ve long ago accepted that sprints are for either a) the young or the b) brave (and who don’t mind a nice juicy injury). I call that High risk, low reward.

Seriously though - you are my hero for even thinking of this!

On the one hand it may appear “high risk low reward”. On the other hand, there are many positive benefits to exercising one’s anaerobic system as we age because by doing so, you implicitly slow down aging. Of course, it is useless if you blow body parts (in which case in hunter gatherer society we’d become useless to the village), so I guess we have to do it with a degree of caution. Isn’t that why they have age graded times ? Also, it is kind of fun to be able to jump in for a game of soccer or touch football with the teenagers and not feel like you’ll totally fall apart with an injury. Maybe it comes down to “use it or lose it”, but the “use it” side needs to be done within reason.

This has nothing to do with triathlon time, more to do with what capacities are reasonable for a given age. For example, we know that sub 10 is an outstanding IM time for 50-54 on any course, but that same guy may have gone under 8:50 in his peak years. But nothing wrong with shooting for what one can do later in life. Just curious what the guys are doing at the anaerobic side of the spectrum.

PS. My sprint times are barely faster than what I’d hold for aerobic events, so the risk is lower. It was interesting reading David Epstein’s book where they found the bullk of elite soccer players are predominantly slow twitch muscle fiber…and it is not because they don’t sprint. It seems that the fast twitch guys never quite make it to the pros, because their fast twitch blows apart their body parts before they can get to pro level. Most of us on here are so past fast twitch, that the risk is a lot lower than we might think. One more interesting point…as we age we keep up our cadence just like young guys, but our stride length dramatically goes down. Why is our push off force declining so much more?

boy I must be an old fart - but I don’t care about being a “weekend athlete” and, am not co-ordinated enough to play skill sports (that’s why I do tri’s). I remember someone asking me - hey join in our beach volleyball game - you look like your in shape. I said “ya, but not in shape for jumping in sand” “wanna do a triathlon?” Let’s go baby! This from the guy who can’t walk and chew gum at the same time :slight_smile:

OK, barely

6

Hey guys,

Interested in hearing how fast those of you in 50-55 can do a 100m and a 400m all out. Gotta have a legit excuse to weight train seriously the next year+ :slight_smile: I know Ken Lehner has put down some fast times being a former decathlete etc. Hand timed in spikes is fine :slight_smile: We’ll even allow IAAF illegal tailwinds (I think that is 2 m/s). Anyone going at 1.5xUsein Bolt for the 100m (14.39). I was happy to do a 2xUsein Bolt today (hand self timed no spikes, no starting blocks). Hoping to work my way down with a bit more specific training recovering from some nerve damage from an accident a few years ago and trying to get back full coordination. I figure it will only come with pushing my comfort envelope and putting the nervous system at the extent of its current abilities (or I might blow a body part in the process, but dumber things have been done).

Dev

Thanks Dev. Great way to eliminate my competition with pulled muscles, or long term injuries. I’ve long ago accepted that sprints are for either a) the young or the b) brave (and who don’t mind a nice juicy injury). I call that High risk, low reward.

Seriously though - you are my hero for even thinking of this!

Very interesting conversation here. I’m only 47 so I can’t be involved in this challenge. However, I do end up doing a lot of sprint swimming as prep for swim meets. I also regularly do wind sprints when I ramp up my run milage. My experience is that this decreases injury. The key is just to not run so much high quality or sprints that you hurt yourself. My running injuries always came from running too fast – but for far too long. The injury never came at the beginning of the set.

7

Hey guys,

Interested in hearing how fast those of you in 50-55 can do a 100m and a 400m all out. Gotta have a legit excuse to weight train seriously the next year+ :slight_smile: I know Ken Lehner has put down some fast times being a former decathlete etc. Hand timed in spikes is fine :slight_smile: We’ll even allow IAAF illegal tailwinds (I think that is 2 m/s). Anyone going at 1.5xUsein Bolt for the 100m (14.39). I was happy to do a 2xUsein Bolt today (hand self timed no spikes, no starting blocks). Hoping to work my way down with a bit more specific training recovering from some nerve damage from an accident a few years ago and trying to get back full coordination. I figure it will only come with pushing my comfort envelope and putting the nervous system at the extent of its current abilities (or I might blow a body part in the process, but dumber things have been done).

Dev

Thanks Dev. Great way to eliminate my competition with pulled muscles, or long term injuries. I’ve long ago accepted that sprints are for either a) the young or the b) brave (and who don’t mind a nice juicy injury). I call that High risk, low reward.

Seriously though - you are my hero for even thinking of this!

Very interesting conversation here. I’m only 47 so I can’t be involved in this challenge. However, I do end up doing a lot of sprint swimming as prep for swim meets. I also regularly do wind sprints when I ramp up my run milage. My experience is that this decreases injury. The key is just to not run so much high quality or sprints that you hurt yourself. My running injuries always came from running too fast – but for far too long. The injury never came at the beginning of the set.

a serious thank you for your observations regarding quantity and quality of speed. Me being dumb as rocks, and old school I always want to do the qty and quality I did in my mid-20’s. So, perhaps I can get decent benefit from a healthy dose of moderation. Unlike swimming where I do MORE quality than I did years ago - not too worried about injury in the water (or the bike).

8

Since your a fellow Canuck, here is where you want to look
http://athletics.ca/pr2.asp?event_id=126&rank_type=Rankings&season_type=Outdoor&class_type=Masters%2050-54&par_type=no&year_type=2013&gender_type=Men&province_type=&lang=_en
.

9

My suggestion is to skip the 100m and probably the 400m, and work on the 800m. If you look at any of the sprint training plans they involve serious speed work, and from personal experience, the hamstrings are not as flexible as they once were. With an 800m you still will be putting in some intense speed work, but not as explosive as the 100/400, and you’ll still need to get the squats, leg presses, and hamstring curls in.

Avoid the idiotic tendency to ‘blast’ down the backstretch during your last set ‘just to see if you still got it’. (I didn’t have it)!

10

The Paul Huddle mile challenge that has been discussed here before is about as short and fast as I’m willing to consider pushing my legs at 55.

11

Dev,

Just for some numbers, in 1981, (I was a senior at 17 years old)we used yards back then here in San Diego, but in the 100 time was 10.9 and for the 440 it was 48.9. Last fall I did some solo 400 meter repeats at 1:15, I did 5 with each a a little faster and 1:15 the last of the set. If a little training and with others on the track, I would like to think maybe 60-65 seconds is possible. As for the 100… Think I might be able to go 13, but who knows these days.

12

Just replying to the thread in general.

First of all, I’m not 50-54 yet, that only happens next year, so I’m not even eligible for this so called “challenge” yetI think you can build up a lot of speed with wind sprints/accelerations of 10-20 second duration. As others pointed out speed at short duration rarely leads to injury…it is doing this when you’ve lost good coordination due to being in aerobic distress that causes problemsI know guys for whom steep hill sprints have been a good path. Less eccentric pounding after blasting off with high push off force. My hunch is what injures “us” as older athletes is when we “come down” from a long stride length, there is more eccentric loading and we have to spring off immediately. Here is the deal…where you don’t have that impulse “change over” between eccentric lengthening and then concentric shortening, older athletes are able to “sprint”. Cycling is an example where older guys can sprint pretty good. Same with many concentric movements in weight training. In XC skiing the magnitude changing from application of eccentric to concentric is not as dramatic as running and older guys sprint pretty good. Food for thought.I’m not particularly interested in getting remotely near all time best from High School. That’s for the teenagers I coach to do, not us older gentlemen and ladiesSprinting can be fun in any sport (depends on your perspective). It also involves a much higher neural component to simultaneously contract or lengthen a large group of muscles. As with weight training, initial gains are not really physiological, they are mainly nervous system related. In a case of “use it or lose it”, the nervous system will just get de-trained over time, as our bodies/brains literally become “dumber” from lack of using those facilities. It is like doing triple integrals. They are harder when you never do them.Flaws in our running gait get dramatically magnified at full speed (even in short accelerations). I suppose that is no different than swim sprinting. You get feedback very quickly that may not show up running at 8-11 min per mile for a long time. At 5 min per mile pace (I am not saying I can run that fast for any duration, but I can for 100m…18.75 seconds), it becomes pretty dramatic what screw ups you have in your stride…that gives us an opportunity to fix those for when we run at 9 min per mile. Anything that shows up at 80m into a 100m acceleration, will also show up 22 miles into an Ironman marathon at 9-10 min per mile pace.

13

a serious thank you for your observations regarding quantity and quality of speed. Me being dumb as rocks, and old school I always want to do the qty and quality I did in my mid-20’s. So, perhaps I can get decent benefit from a healthy dose of moderation. Unlike swimming where I do MORE quality than I did years ago - not too worried about injury in the water (or the bike).

Hmmm… I think I should be a bit more specific about what I have done, because deviation from protocol leads to injuries pretty easily IMO.

First, my wind sprints I’m talking about were 2 to 3 times a week with ~5 sprints of 8 seconds each up a 6% grade. I take about 80-90 seconds of rest between each sprint. You want to be completely fresh and able to concentrate before each one. Often they will get slowly faster – sometimes you’ve got to get the cobwebs out of the system for the first couple. This wind sprint regimen can occur after a medium distance pretty slow run. It feels like a running form of weight lifting.

Second, I do dynamic stretching before my runs and before the sprinting. Look that up if you need to. No static stretches – too much evidence that static stretching can lead to injury.

Third, in my opinion lifting and sprinting recovery is comparatively more difficult than aerobic endurance recovery the older you get. Be aware of this and don’t get over extended. The natural training response is: training, followed by decreased function, followed by recovery to a point of increased function, followed by training. Watch out for starting your subsequent HIT sessions into the “followed by decreased function” state. You think you are being tough and that tough is good, but no.

14

One more idea to share with you guys and I feel this works well for older guys with very little injury downside. Some time during easy runs, do a section which is 10x60 seconds where 20 seconds of the 60 is an acceleration and 40 seconds are an easy jog. It is enough to get the foot speed and get up to speed, but short enough that you’re never in aerobic distress (muscles don’t feel like rubber) and the recovery long enough for the next round. A lot of foot speed is achieveable this way with fairly low injury potential (in the above example, it is only 200 seconds at speed, so just over 3 minutes total). I have incorporated this into IM training not for the IM but because I wanted to do some shorter racing afterwards (1 mile, sprint tri,10K, Olympic) and did not want to lose all foot speed and have my body “shocked”.