4x4 (Hoff-Helgerud) intervals

Triathlon Forum
1

Hoff and Helgerud studied 4x4’ intervals sessions
for soccer players and also patients who suffered
cardiac arrest. They reported large benefits of the
method.

However, the method remains controversial
especially in Norway. I would be interested in
hearing more about the effectiveness of this
method. More specifically, have people tried this
method and what have their experiences been
(number of sessions per week + outcome, etc.)

I have seen numerous variations on this method:
from 2 sessions a week (with traditional periodization)
to 10+ sessions in 10 day “intensity block”.

Also, why is this method so controversial?
It seems that many elite cross-country skiers
have been using this method effectively
(if I recall correctly, Marit Bjoergen and Beckie Scott
among others).

2

IT was late last year or earlier this year that the 4x4 was discussed, along with what one of the Nordics called High-Low training. And my apologies for not getting the name of the ST author of this piece, but it is a great piece that I used as a base for my Kona training this year and I certainly think it makes good sense.

"I can try to give some insight in this kind of training since I grew up in it as a cross country skier in Norway. So first of all, this is nothing new, and the use of lactate and HR monitor started in the beginning of the 80. The interesting thing is that the HR monitor was mostly used to keep intensity down and sometimes we had to walk uphill to keep it low enough (you will find a lot of long hills in Norway).

Also training under this system is based on time, not speed. You will go and run/ski/roller ski for 90 minutes. Nowhere in your training plan will a coach talk to you about your speed. You as an athlete need to find out what is easy and stay there. One good sign, if people stop talking during an easy workout the intensity is too high. Yes, an easy workout is talking speed and yes you have to scale back in the hills (that is hard for cyclists).

During intervals individual start is quite common, you should not push too hard in the beginning and then die, but keep the whole workout at the correct level (do not go into read). For the top level skiers, using lactate is quite common to make sure they are not pushing too hard or too low during intervals (hard is usually most common, but low if the athlete is tired or close to overtraining).

How to set up a program with this methodology.
If you work out every day, you can have 5 easy days and 2 hard. If you work out more, keep 2 hard sessions and just add easy. For adults, intervals should be around 30 minutes (4x8,5x6, 6x5). The reference to 4x4 in the video is actually a reference to a debate in Norway about intensity, intervals and if you need easy training. If 2 hard sessions seams hard, start with one.
You will find it frustrating to go slow so maybe turn off your GPS and Strata :slight_smile:
During intervals, make sure the first one is the slowest, do not start too hard.

Let me know if you have any other questions.
And yes, I got in hell of a shape using this (sadly many of my competitors did the same :wink: "

foobarx, I can’t ever imagine my body sustaining 4X4 daily for 10 days, but then again, I’m a slightly older MOP, has been who never was.
so what is the difference in 4x4 to 5x4 or 3x6 etc? seems like stressors to me,and stress is what an interval is all about isn’t it?

**

3

A bit of background: I used to train cross-country skiing
and employed different training methods. More recently
(no longer training seriously), I have also experimented
with different training methods mostly out of curiosity.

The gist of 4x4 interval method as described by Hoff-Helgerud is:
http://www.innomed.no/media/uploads/moteplass_fall_og_larhalsbrudd/Brosjyre_trening_engelsk.pdf

In the “compressed intensity block” (say 1 week) you would do
between 3 to 10 4x4 sessions. In a 2 week intensity block,
you would do up to 18 sessions (some interview with Helgerud,
don’t have reference).

One year, I have tried this training method. I have tried different
block sizes and tried different number of 4x4 sessions in a block.
The worst I have tried was to do 12 4x4 sessions in 14 days
(basically 4x4 session every day with one day two days off
or easy). A short and non-scientific summary of this
experiment is:

  • sessions are very short. Almost always under an hour:
    a bit of warm up (15 min), sessions (25 minutes in total),
    and cool down (10-15min)
  • intensity block (say 5-6 sessions per week) is very
    mentally challenging. I didn’t experience huge physical
    difficulties, but mentally on the 3rd or 4th day I was
    mentally exhausted and was dreading it
  • I experienced no increase (or decrease) in performance.
    It was like with any other training. The ultimate test was
    a marathon race (one year with “regular” training, the next
    year employing 4x4) where time didn’t change at all.

I survived dreaded 12 sessions in 14 days:

  • I had to skip one day, because I couldn’t get
    my heart rate up. Hoff/Helgerud advice was
    to skip a session if you can’t get it into the
    target zone. It was very strange experience because
    despite going almost all out, I could only get my heart
    rate up to about 80% HRmax. That freaked me out.
  • Despite the mental challenges that these sessions
    posed, I found that it didn’t make me “tougher” in
    mental sense. I wasn’t able to push myself harder
    because of this.

Overall: I found 4x4 training method just like any other.
It may work for some and it may not work for others. For
me, it didn’t provide massive gains (more than a regular
training would). From my perspective, a risk of overtraining
seemed pretty high, but didn’t experience it myself. But, my
personal feeling is that if you overtrain using this, you pay a steep
price. There was a blog entry from a female orienteering runner
(unfortunately, link to that page doesn’t exist) where she described
her experience with this and how it ruined her entire season.

Regarding the length (4 minutes vs 6 or 8 minutes) and the number
of intervals. I don’t know why 4 minutes was chosen. Perhaps they
have done experiments with other lengths (and they have with their
15" + 15" protocol) and maybe they have settled on 4.

4

I can tell that Marit Bjoergen is not doing 4x4 anymore.

4x4 is good for football/soccer. And intervals done correctly is important in the polarized model also. Just doing easy training will not be enough.
The 4x4 debate has died down. Doing the amount of intervals required to follow the system burned out the athletes, especially on the top level since they are also competeing 50 times a year on snow and also some running/rollerski races during summer.

But for athletes that work out 5 times a week, you can still do intervals two times.
Let me know if you want me to dig up some Norwegian stuff on the debate.

5

That was me and thanks for the nice words. But I cannot take any credit, I an just repeating what others are saying. But yes I believe in the system :slight_smile:

6

I know that intensity block training became very popular
among American cross-country skiers some 10-12 years
ago and I know there are still people employing it now.

I can tell that Marit Bjoergen is not doing 4x4 anymore.

I would be curious to hear when and why she stopped using it.

Let me know if you want me to dig up some Norwegian stuff on the debate.

It would be interesting to hear if there has been reached some consensus on this.
Or opinions of athletes that have used it (and defended it) in the past, but have
now switched to other approaches.

7

I know that intensity block training became very popular
among American cross-country skiers some 10-12 years
ago and I know there are still people employing it now.

I can tell that Marit Bjoergen is not doing 4x4 anymore.

I would be curious to hear when and why she stopped using it.

Let me know if you want me to dig up some Norwegian stuff on the debate.

It would be interesting to hear if there has been reached some consensus on this.
Or opinions of athletes that have used it (and defended it) in the past, but have
now switched to other approaches.

Most that did it got burned out because of high volume combined with high intensity. With the intensity block training you needed to take significant rest after the blocks and drop the volume. In the blocks you would only do 6-8hrs a week, instead of 15-20. If you tried to maintain your yearly volume at 6-800hrs a year, you got burnt.

Beckie had success with the system for about 2 years at the end of her career, after 10+ years of ‘normal’ training.

I had athletes do as much as 9 workouts in 7 days. They all survived the year and actually most did very well. The gains were short lived and we changed the following year.

The 4min is based on time at vo2 max. The aim was to increase vo2 by spending as much time as possible in that zone and as little as possible doing other things that would limit the quality of those 4x4 sessions. They are very good workouts for time crunched athletes.

8

I had athletes do as much as 9 workouts in 7 days. They all survived the year and actually most did very well. The gains were short lived and we changed the following year.

Could you expand a bit on “gains were short lived”? And perhaps speculate on why that was the case?

9

The consensus for endurance training in Norway follow these guide lines.
http://www.olympiatoppen.no/fagomraader/trening/utholdenhet/fagartikler/media3531.media
http://www.kondis.no/4x4-trening-oedela-to-aarskull-i-langrenn.5190740-127145.html
Hopefully Google translate can help.

Based on the results the last years it looks like Norway will not change way of training.
Here you have a link to all world cup races http://www.crosscountryski.us/

With the 4x4 the endurance did not get to a wanted level. When volume went down and intensity up the athletes could have some OK races, but did not build up an overall endurance. This was especially clear for younger athletes trying to take the next step.

10

I had athletes do as much as 9 workouts in 7 days. They all survived the year and actually most did very well. The gains were short lived and we changed the following year.

Could you expand a bit on “gains were short lived”? And perhaps speculate on why that was the case?

Exactly as Halvard states. Volume went way down so long term success went down. For people at the end of a career, it can be a great option. For young athletes it puts you in a hole with such low volume (like 400 vs 600hrs a year)

Nothing at all wrong with4x4 intervals as part of a plan. But trying to build in 6-12 over a 1-2 week period is challenging.

11

Volume went way down so long term success went down.

Of course, that make sense, and I have seen this first hand where doing
this compressed intensity blocks gives you good boost for one season.

Did you actually measure (or have some good anecdotal evidence) VO2
and did you see actual improvement in numbers?

But trying to build in 6-12 over a 1-2 week period is challenging.

Agreed, I just tried to figure this out a few weeks ago. How long would you
“rest block” and “maintenance block” be followed the “intensity block”?