401K plan - fails the discrimination test each year

As a HCE due to our company’s 401K plan failing to satisfy the discrimination test each year (80% of the employees are retail-type employees making hourly wages), I get back a large amount (high 4 figures) as an “Excess Contribution” and our company has a very poor company match program so we don’t qualify for the “Safe Harbor”

Since my income is deemed too high, I would not (as best I can research) also qualify for the tax deduction benefits of a Traditional and/or Roth IRA if I was to move my Excess Contribution refund to that.

Last year my 401K investments made 38%

I have been contributing approx. 15% of my salary to the 401K but planning on reducing that to a smaller number. My 401k plan also has a Roth deductible option, not sure if there is any tax benefit in that.

I am just looking for some non-binding advice from any experts here and from those that stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night on anything that I can do to minimize the annual tax ramifications and “loss” of retirement income.

Thank you

Not an expert, and I stayed home last night.

I don’t understand your opening paragraph.

I think your question was, what type of tax shelters are out there? not sure what the “lose” of retirement income is you speak of.

Backdoor Roth
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Backdoor Roth

This, assuming you have no other IRAs.

Failing the 401k discrimination testing sucks. There isn’t a lot you can do about this, outside of trying to get all of those retail employees to participate. Does your company use auto enrollment? That can help bump the participation levels up.

Backdoor Roth

I work in this industry and this is what I came in to say. Your best bet is ultimately to set up some informational sessions with staff going over the benefits of enrollment and get enough people on board that you don’t get your contribution amounts reduced.

My husband and I make non-deductible contributions to IRAs every year. Not a huge tax advantage, but better than nothing. You could also look at whole life or some other annuity product, but that has its costs and downsides.

For good or for bad, Congress does not care about giving HCEs tax incentives to save for retirement. That’s the bottom line.

There isn’t a lot you can do about this, outside of trying to get all of those retail employees to participate. Does your company use auto enrollment? That can help bump the participation levels up.

I have been trying to do this the past year to drum up support to change providers. My organization’s 401k is a joke with obscene fees, terrible fund choices, and representatives who don’t have a clue what they are talking about; somebody’s neighbor or cousin is making a ton of money off our organization. I am shocked because 90% of my employees simply are apathetic, either they don’t understand or don’t care.

the 38% gain is what stood out for me (not being sophisticated in 401K plans) - - but my hunch is that gain comes with super high risk (ie all in biotech funds) which could mean -50% in any given year so I’d balance that out soon while you still have it.

Going out on a limb here, but I’d guess that “return” includes last year’s contributions as well.

Going out on a limb here, but I’d guess that “return” includes last year’s contributions as well.

Honestly not sure how it was calculation. My statement stated Rate of Return: (it was 31% not 38%, my mistake) though my two biggest funds (yes, high risk, very violate) grew 39% and 44% in 2013.

There isn’t a lot you can do about this, outside of trying to get all of those retail employees to participate. Does your company use auto enrollment? That can help bump the participation levels up.

I have been trying to do this the past year to drum up support to change providers. My organization’s 401k is a joke with obscene fees, terrible fund choices, and representatives who don’t have a clue what they are talking about; somebody’s neighbor or cousin is making a ton of money off our organization. I am shocked because 90% of my employees simply are apathetic, either they don’t understand or don’t care.

Not to take this thread into a socio-economic direction, but that is the issue that my company faces in that “they don’t understand” and don’t want to understand.

With employees through the USA but a large bulk in the high cost NYC, LA and Chicago areas, many of our employees are not USA born citizens, so they are unfamiliar with 401K plans and they do not want to contribute as they send a bulk of their hard earned money to their families in their native countries and also they “don’t trust the gov’t”.

Our HR Dept and/or 401K Administrators tries to educate all the employee each year with information in several different languages, location seminars, etc but with little success, thus the prime reason why we fail the testing each and every year.

And then we are globally owned by a foreign company whose is not willing to increase the company match (due once again, to a lack of understanding of the benefits, I believe) to the Safe Harbor limits (IIRC it’s 4%) as that will cost millions a year.

Muni bonds. Unsexy. Low returns. But relatively safe, a quasi-hedge to stocks, and tax “advantaged.” Might balance out your high risk stocks nicely.

There isn’t a lot you can do about this, outside of trying to get all of those retail employees to participate. Does your company use auto enrollment? That can help bump the participation levels up.

I have been trying to do this the past year to drum up support to change providers. My organization’s 401k is a joke with obscene fees, terrible fund choices, and representatives who don’t have a clue what they are talking about; somebody’s neighbor or cousin is making a ton of money off our organization. I am shocked because 90% of my employees simply are apathetic, either they don’t understand or don’t care.

Not to take this thread into a socio-economic direction, but that is the issue that my company faces in that “they don’t understand” and don’t want to understand.

With employees through the USA but a large bulk in the high cost NYC, LA and Chicago areas, many of our employees are not USA born citizens, so they are unfamiliar with 401K plans and they do not want to contribute as they send a bulk of their hard earned money to their families in their native countries and also they “don’t trust the gov’t”.

Our HR Dept and/or 401K Administrators tries to educate all the employee each year with information in several different languages, location seminars, etc but with little success, thus the prime reason why we fail the testing each and every year.

And then we are globally owned by a foreign company whose is not willing to increase the company match (due once again, to a lack of understanding of the benefits, I believe) to the Safe Harbor limits (IIRC it’s 4%) as that will cost millions a year.

My organization employees ~400 people, I have ~150 under my direct management alone and 95% are salary. It’s a public organization so most are not high earners (average maybe $40k), but every single employee has at least a 4-year undergrad degree, including my secretary. These are not unintelligent people, but you say “taxes/retirement/investing” and they look at you like you have a third eye. Our HR manager is the only one who is actively on-board with doing some work to change providers and he is very ignorant about the topic as well, but trusts me. It’s sad, can think of very few things I’d be more interested in learning more about than money and how to keep what I earn.

There isn’t a lot you can do about this, outside of trying to get all of those retail employees to participate. Does your company use auto enrollment? That can help bump the participation levels up.

I have been trying to do this the past year to drum up support to change providers. My organization’s 401k is a joke with obscene fees, terrible fund choices, and representatives who don’t have a clue what they are talking about; somebody’s neighbor or cousin is making a ton of money off our organization. I am shocked because 90% of my employees simply are apathetic, either they don’t understand or don’t care.

Not to take this thread into a socio-economic direction, but that is the issue that my company faces in that “they don’t understand” and don’t want to understand.

With employees through the USA but a large bulk in the high cost NYC, LA and Chicago areas, many of our employees are not USA born citizens, so they are unfamiliar with 401K plans and they do not want to contribute as they send a bulk of their hard earned money to their families in their native countries and also they “don’t trust the gov’t”.

Our HR Dept and/or 401K Administrators tries to educate all the employee each year with information in several different languages, location seminars, etc but with little success, thus the prime reason why we fail the testing each and every year.

And then we are globally owned by a foreign company whose is not willing to increase the company match (due once again, to a lack of understanding of the benefits, I believe) to the Safe Harbor limits (IIRC it’s 4%) as that will cost millions a year.

My organization employees ~400 people, I have ~150 under my direct management alone and 95% are salary. It’s a public organization so most are not high earners (average maybe $40k), but every single employee has at least a 4-year undergrad degree, including my secretary. These are not unintelligent people, but you say “taxes/retirement/investing” and they look at you like you have a third eye. Our HR manager is the only one who is actively on-board with doing some work to change providers and he is very ignorant about the topic as well, but trusts me. It’s sad, can think of very few things I’d be more interested in learning more about than money and how to keep what I earn.

Wait until one of your co-workers figures out that your 401k plan is terrible and sues the plan administrators (likely to be company officers). Maybe that will get their attention.

++++++

We are about 1,000 employees in the US and just switched providers in December. I was a part of the team that led the project that led to the change. It was very interesting, and I think everyone on the team learned something about 401k’s and how they work (and more importantly, how they ‘should’ work). It was a good process, but we never would have been as successful had we not hired a consultant to help us make some decisions. There is way too much information for one of our internal folks to keep abreast of (and do their real job). There is a huge industry out there that makes a hell of a living off of investors, and many of them have no interest in trying to educate the people that pay for their lifestyles. Our plan was not out of control (in my opinion), and we were still able to reduce costs by quite a bit by taking it to market.

We did move to auto enrollment as part of the provider change, but mostly as a way to lessen the burden on our HR folks. We were 90%+ participation prior to the change, so that wasn’t an issue. The debate now is whether to add an auto increase provision as well. Not sure where we’ll go with that, as there are some differing opinions within our group.

Our plan meets the safe harbor requirements (dollar for dollar on the first 4%, immediate vesting) which may be one of the reasons our participation is so high.

Like many things in America, the 401k is part good idea and part government encouraged racket. The government encouraged racquet part doesn’t like too much light to be cast on it.

You don’t have any options within the plan other than increasing enrollment. Auto-enrollment is huge in this, so if you can get the decision makers on board, it would help. Basically every person that doesn’t participate lowers the NHCE deferral rate and your HCE deferral rate is entirely based on that. So even if you get a bunch of people auto-enrolled at 3%, it would be big. I used to be a retirement plan consultant and most of our clients were non-profits and they basically all had this problem. 500 person organization, 20 people are management, everyone else is hourly. And since they were 403b’s, universal availability meant that all employees were counted, you couldn’t care people out like you can w/ a 401k.

People are incredibly apathetic when it comes to retirement. We tried education meetings for our clients where we would go out and try to get people to sign up and no one would. It was frustrating that people who made decent money $50-$80K would literally have zero retirement savings. I can understand someone making $10 an hour not caring, but if you’re a professional, you should care. So auto-enrollment was the only way to raise participation. People would complain and say it wasn’t fair, sowe would put a 90 day window to opt out within the plan and even then, people were too apathetic to opt out. Once it began, they just let it ride.

I now work for a very large company on the retirement side and most of our plans are auto-enrolled because of the HCE issue.

Roth option won’t help you since it’s part of your deferral %. So they’ll back that money out too if you fail the test. As others have said, you can use the backdoor Roth and contribute to a non deductible IRA, then reclassify it. Won’t help with the tax situation since that money is still taxed today.

I am curious though, how stingy is the company that you can’t Safe Harbor the plan? The required match is not that high and unless you have big turnover, the immediate vesting isn’t too much of a problem.

There isn’t a lot you can do about this, outside of trying to get all of those retail employees to participate. Does your company use auto enrollment? That can help bump the participation levels up.

I have been trying to do this the past year to drum up support to change providers. My organization’s 401k is a joke with obscene fees, terrible fund choices, and representatives who don’t have a clue what they are talking about; somebody’s neighbor or cousin is making a ton of money off our organization. I am shocked because 90% of my employees simply are apathetic, either they don’t understand or don’t care.

Not to take this thread into a socio-economic direction, but that is the issue that my company faces in that “they don’t understand” and don’t want to understand.

With employees through the USA but a large bulk in the high cost NYC, LA and Chicago areas, many of our employees are not USA born citizens, so they are unfamiliar with 401K plans and they do not want to contribute as they send a bulk of their hard earned money to their families in their native countries and also they “don’t trust the gov’t”.

Our HR Dept and/or 401K Administrators tries to educate all the employee each year with information in several different languages, location seminars, etc but with little success, thus the prime reason why we fail the testing each and every year.

And then we are globally owned by a foreign company whose is not willing to increase the company match (due once again, to a lack of understanding of the benefits, I believe) to the Safe Harbor limits (IIRC it’s 4%) as that will cost millions a year.

I feel your pain about the undesired refund check every year. Last year, I received a check for almost every cent I contributed outside of my catch up contribution. How maddening to be restricted by lesser paid employees that refuse to think past next week. And, don’t think that US born citizens are much better than the largely foreign born employees of your company about saving for retirement. After learning of the dismal participation rate of our hourly employees, I put together a half hour long presentation to let them know what they were passing up. Our company matches the first 1% dollar for dollar and matches the next 2%-5% at .50 per dollar contributed. It’s a generous program that adds up quickly…unless you just can’t think past next week. I had several guys express distrust in letting the company ‘hold their money’. I explained that the company wasn’t holding it, Principal Financial was holding it in an account in their name, but didn’t seem to help matters at all. Several of the guys aren’t even married and could easily afford to put away 3-5%, but most of them agreed with the one that said, "I want MY money. What they wanted it for was to buy low restriction exhaust systems for their trucks, bigger wheels & tires, etc. Others simply couldn’t see the point is saving for retirement that was 30 years away. Just not on their radar.

Finally, this year, our company’s 401(k) program qualifies under a provision called ‘Safe Harbor’. We will no longer be restricted in how much we can contribute regardless of the participation rate of hourly employees. It is truly sad to see these guys (and women) passing up such a generous program, but I don’t know what can be done to help people that are either so incredibly short sighted or just plain greedy that they steadfastly refuse to look ahead. Beyond that, in 20-30 years, these people will be the latest crop of voters up for sale as politicians seek ways to continue funding the Social Security program. The politicians that win will be the candidates that promise to take away the benefits of those ‘greedy rich folk’ that paid in far more than any of them and redistribute the funds to ‘those truly in need’. Yea, right.

Greg