4:00 HIM benchmarks - flat course

Triathlon Forum
1

What does the training look like to hit that level?

Hours are clearly going to be 15-20, but the devil is in the details.

What does a threshold s/b/r look like? I’m curious about a regular threshold workout (not the best workout of the year)

What’s the long run / weekly mileage?

Is the bike really all about increasing LT1?

What are the things that all these guys can do eg mile run in x, 400m free in ?, ftp of x per kilo ( I’m not asserting these are the benchmarks what are they - you tell me please.

I find this more interesting to think about than complaint about where some wc will be.

2

25 mins swim
2:15 ride
1:15 run
5 mins transitions

Can you do each one of those? In fact, can you do 90-95% of each one?

It’s not a matter of training hours. If you open half marathon is 1:25, you’re never going to be sub-4 in a well measured course.

Such short distance benchmarks as you propose don’t mean anything. Maybe a 1500m, 40km ITT and 10km run could be more representative.

VO2max could be the only real benchmark. I’d say 70-72 as a minimum. With high 60s you’d be in the 4-4:15 range

3

What does the training look like to hit that level?

Hours are clearly going to be 15-20, but the devil is in the details.

What does a threshold s/b/r look like? I’m curious about a regular threshold workout (not the best workout of the year)

What’s the long run / weekly mileage?

Is the bike really all about increasing LT1?

What are the things that all these guys can do eg mile run in x, 400m free in ?, ftp of x per kilo ( I’m not asserting these are the benchmarks what are they - you tell me please.

I find this more interesting to think about than complaint about where some wc will be.

IT would be more about the swim being LT1. once you pass your threshold you are taking away from the rest of the race paces alot of speed.

what it takes 300m swim in 3:45. 100 m in sub 1:07
bike 4 watts per kg in aero below threshold (depends what system you use but LT 1)
Run 1 mile in 4:40 5 km in 16:00

how you get there can happen many ways in training, but you have to get there.

4

I’m pretty close to 4 hrs–I went 4:02 at Eagleman this year, broken down as 27, 2:09, 1:20. I was probably a little slow in transition and took zero risks on the corners on the bike course since it was raining/wet.

The last 8 weeks before that race, I was between 12 and 16 hours, probably averaging 14 or so.

I don’t do a lot of testing or work to figure out my thresholds. On the swim before that race, I was doing sets of 100s on 1:30 coming in around 1:15 (25 yd pool). As my swimmer wife will tell you, my turns are horrible, so I was able to do 1:20/100 yd pace in a wetsuit for the race pretty comfortably. I haven’t done a 400 free test in a very long time but I would guess I would be in the 4:40-4:45 range. That could be way off though.

On the bike, I did a test up the Alpe in Zwift about 6 weeks prior to the race, and that was about 350 watts for over 40 minutes, but I mostly train longer intervals between 320 and 340 depending on how I’m feeling on a given day. The race was about 275 watts.

On the run, my long run was 2 hrs or about 16 miles, and I was running 40-45 miles a week. I have no idea what I can run a mile in, and I don’t really do that much threshold work on the run because I do a lot of strides/pickups, hills, and easy running. If I do tempo running, it’s typically around 6:00/mile pace, so not much faster than HIM race pace.

I did Eagleman at about 75 kg.

5

Can you give an example of what one of your longer interval sessions is like?

6

What does the training look like to hit that level?

Having coached a few sub 4h people here’s my take. I’ll have some commentary on the back side as well.

The swims have been from high 23 to very low 26s consistently. Meaning 80% of the races you’re +/- :02-:03/100 in OWS and getting out around the same people no matter how off the course is. It’s important to have a high threshold speed but you also need a really fast opening 200. I timed a few 70.3s a few years ago through the first two buoys. The leader hit the 2nd buoy in 2:02 and 2:04 for the two races. There were people on his feet and then people on those feet with the main group through ~ 2:12. If you can swim 1:08s all day but can’t swim a :54 or a 2:05 200 or 4:30 400 you’re going to miss that first group. In other words you might be able to swim 1:08’s all day long but if you can’t open with a 1:00-1:03 then 1:05-:06 you’re going to miss the split to that front group.

Hours are clearly going to be 15-20, but the devil is in the details. More like 17-25 for a lot of the year. Yet after their season ending time off they could be 5-7-10 for a month or so.

What does a threshold s/b/r look like? I’m curious about a regular threshold workout (not the best workout of the year) There is no magic interval. Look at what you need to improve. Maybe you can ride 350 for 45-65 min but only 260 for 2h. Maybe you can ride 295 for 2h but can only do 330 for 5 min. Same for the swim. If you don’t have any get up and go speed then you need to develop that. It’s a lot easier to swim 25:20 on the feet of 3 others than swim 25:45 solo. Ask me how I know :wink:

Same with running. I’ve coached dudes who couldn’t break 16:15 in a 5k yet they could run 16:45’s for 30k and their kick for the line got them into the 16:39 range…if they held that kick for 5k. I ran XC in college with a guy who couldn’t go slower than about low 50s for a 400 or 4:25 for a mile (he was state champ in the mile) yet that dude had nothing after about 20 min. I don’t think there was an interval workout in college that I beat him and there wasn’t a college XC race where he beat me. I was, at best, a mediocre college runner to boot.

What’s the long run / weekly mileage? 1:25 - 2:15 range, depends where they are in the season

Is the bike really all about increasing LT1? There is a lot of research showing that having a high LT1 is a really good thing for endurance sports. After all it’s an aerobic sport. The bigger your sub threshold engine the better off you’re going to be.

What are the things that all these guys can do eg mile run in x, 400m free in ?, ftp of x per kilo ( I’m not asserting these are the benchmarks what are they - you tell me please. From around 5 down to 4:20. Sub 4:45 in the 400, >4.2w/kg and racing >3.5w/kg

I find this more interesting to think about than complaint about where some wc will be. AMEN!!

commentary:
IDK where you’re at, 4:02 4:08 4:00:01 (which would be lol and frustrating all at once). be involved with the process, focus on where you’re struggling without neglecting where you’re awesome. If you can swim a :52/100, great! Don’t focus solely on swimming threshold intervals that you lose so much top end you get blown off feet and gapped at the start.

Maybe you can ride hours at 85-90% of your FTP but anything over 105%, even for 2-3 minutes and your shelled. Now you need to drop to 65% to recover. Well there’s a weakness you can work on.

Maybe you can drop a 60sec last 400 but only run 5:30’s for a 10k. There’s a ton of good info for you to ponder to improve.

There are a ton of ways to skin the cat to get to sub 4. Depends where you’re at.

LMK/ping me if you have any questions

7

I’m pretty boring and don’t mind repetition so YMMV with these, but I’ll do anything from 1 x 30’-60’ to 2 x 15’-30’ to 3 x 15’-20’ targeting 95ish % of threshold. Basically, I don’t want to do anything less than 15’ because if I can’t do 15’ @ 95%, something is seriously wrong. The goal is accumulate a total duration of work of 30-60 minutes. And that’s for the bike only. If I tried to do that volume of hard running, I think I would be really, really sore.

8

While I agree with the top of your post,
Vo2 above 70 is 100% not needed.

In 1967 Derek Clayton set the Marathon World record, 2:09:36. His PR was 2:08:33…God knows what he’d have run in fast shoes. Probably sub 2:04 is my guess.
Vo2…69.7

High Vo2s are ego fuel for the talented and lazy.
As you pointed out, to go sub 4:00, you need to go sub 4:00.

9

Something like sub-30:00/2:20:00/1:20:00. That adds up to 4:10 + transitions. So take time away from where you’re the strongest. You can go sub-4:00 with the swim or run in the low end & then biking a good bit quicker.

Weekly Volume: 10k+ (yards) swim/200+ (miles) bike/40-50 (miles) run

Weekly threshold session volume: 2k-3k swim, 40k+ bike, 10k+ run. Then some longer efforts on the weekend with some work closer to race pace. Long run probably in the 25k range for the most part.

Dk how important mile speed is but you probably have to be sub-4:50 to be able to go sub-80:00 since your open half needs to be at least 1:16-1:17.

10

While I agree with the top of your post,
Vo2 above 70 is 100% not needed.

In 1967 Derek Clayton set the Marathon World record, 2:09:36. His PR was 2:08:33…God knows what he’d have run in fast shoes. Probably sub 2:04 is my guess.
Vo2…69.7

High Vo2s are ego fuel for the talented and lazy.
As you pointed out, to go sub 4:00, you need to go sub 4:00.

There is a paper somewhere where “world class cyclists” were studied for VO2 Max and other parameters. For the cyclists to be qualified for the study they needed to have a TDF, Giro, or Vuelta stage under their belt. IIRC, some of these folks had VO2 maxes as low as 65.

11

The takeaway is that my real question is how to identify my strengths and weaknesses.

The splits from my PB are 27 / 2:28 / 1:28, which was my fourth race and the first one where I did structured training on the run (and have since progressed passed where I was pre-race in training). Is it speed work or threshold to get faster; ie at some point don’t you need to increase your capacity and then extend your threshold.

I also am a reformed swimmer, so there’s some low hanging fruit there that has yet to be picked maybe 90 seconds without going over the top.

Clearly dmorris’s post shows that I need to learn how to ride a bike. At 58kg I could do all the threshold in the world and I wouldn’t push enough watts; is a 285w ftp possible? Currently in the 245ish range. How do I identify how to get faster?

12

If I put together my best three tri disciplines, I’m close without transition time. These were 30, 2:04, 1:27. Best overall 70.3 was 4:13 this season, but that was six weeks after getting covid - would have been around 4:10 with a better run. My goal for next year is getting under 4:10, but I don’t think I’ll ever get much under that - will be 45 next year, so time isn’t on my side!

My swim isn’t great, so I’m always chasing, and certainly not balanced.

I’d think someone who is pretty balanced would be in the 26-27, 2:08-2:10, 1:20-1:22 range, then add in a few minutes for transitions if it’s a smaller transition area.

I’m a bit imbalanced in that my swim isn’t great, and I’m chasing most of the day.

13

I’ve been 4:07, 4:03, 4:04, 4:05, 4:06 in my last 5 70.3s. Typically a 25 min swim, 2:07-2:10 bike, and 1:26ish run. For me, the run is what’s killing me. You have to be running 1:20ish to break 4 hours for most people. You can get away with a 1:22 if your swim is 25 low and bike 2:07-2:08 and transitions aren’t crazy long.

14

I’ve gone sub 4:00 both in the build up to a full distance (starting tired, but big form), on the afterburners after a full distance (starting really fresh, but less form) and as a A-race for itself (fresh and with big form).

Training average for me (excluding 3-4 weeks of offseason) is 17-18 hours, but this is average for the 11 remaining months of the year. Bigger weeks around 28-30 hours, but a normal week is 16 hours. Swimming x3-4, bike x5 and running x6 - 12-15k in the pool (SCM and LCM), 9-10 hours on the bike and 50-60k running.

FOP swim - swim courses vary but between 23 and 27 minutes for my sub 4:00

3x10x100 scm @1:30 hitting 1:14-1:16 with lactate below 3.0 mmol.
10x400 scm @6:00 building from 5:30 to 4:45 - lactate will be above threshold in the end.
Every second week I swim 60 minutes with no stops around 1:20-1:22 scm.

I would swim hard 1,5 times every week (I have my son every second weekend = I’m training 12/2, with 12 days “on” and 2 days with almost no training)

Bike - 2:04-2:07 on 290-300w AVG (81 kg)

Hour of power on the turbo between 320-350w depending on freshness in the legs
4x40 minutes outside in TT around 275w - staying below 1.5 mmol.
Everything between 6x5 minutes to 5x12 minutes on the turbo between 300 and 360 - staying below 2.9 mmol.
As much time around 230-260w as I can without killing the rest of the workouts

Run - 1:18-1:21

Most runs are basic runs between 7:20 and 8:00 minutes pr mile.
Threshold runs are normally also “long run” when I’m not training for a full distance.
I’m injury prone = threshold are more LT1 style than LT2, and I rarely go above 1.8 mmol in training.
Normally I switch every week between 5-6 x mile a little faster than 70.3 racepace, but staying below 1.8 mmol and the other week is 3-4 x 3-4k a little slower than 70.3 race pace.

My weekly long run is “always” 1 run longer than 20k, sometimes up to 24k in the build for a 70.3 (I don’t find this really important) and weekly milage is 50-60k. I really hope to build this to 65-70k this winter.

Bike really about LT1?
“Yes” - building LT1 is great, if it’s a limiter for you. When I’m race ready my LT1 is a low percentage of my LT2, which indicates that this could be a limiter for me. 285w LT1 and 345w LT2 - I’m working on getting a higher LT1, and with the training hours I bet my LT2 will also come up. Coming from a swim background I don’t find my VO2max a limiter… Not yet :slight_smile:

I don’t know with my mile time, being injury prone I don’t test this. But I can run X x 1k with lactate below 3.0 mmol in 3:30 pace. 400m free in SCM all out around 4:30-4:34. “FTP” around 4.4-4.5 w/kg.

I know I’m in shape for my 70.3 when I can do (with fatigue):
3x40 minutes @270w feeling GOOD
Swim 3x10x100 @1:30 hitting 1:14-1:16 feeling GOOD
Run 3x4k @3:50 min/km feeling GOOD

The thing you’re not asking… How many grams of carbs can you take on riding 70.3 pace in your aeroposition?
I drink 260-280 grams of carbs on the bike during a 70.3.

15

Typically a 25 min swim, 2:07-2:10 bike, and 1:26ish run.

dude.

16

Typically a 25 min swim, 2:07-2:10 bike, and 1:26ish run.

dude.

Tell me what I don’t already know. It hasn’t been for a lack of trying. I will get there.

17

haha. i felt like i had the “tools” to do 4 at the right race, but never was able to put all my tools together in the toolbox on the day.

it’s really hard.

18

Typically a 25 min swim, 2:07-2:10 bike, and 1:26ish run.

dude.

Yeah, it’s pretty instructive to look at both low hanging fruit (run) and high-hanging fruit to de-prioritize. A 25 min swim is going to take A TON of work to improve, and the gains are likely to be a minute or two at best.

Pretty well known but worth restating, cycling and running have an overlapping training effect that swimming (largely) does not. In this case, it seems advisable that OP should switch some bike training to run training and expect that the losses on the bike will be mitigated by the extra run volume.

A fairly good benchmark, IMO, is to look at PB’s or estimated PB’s over each individual distance and target ~90% of HIM goal time. That is to say, if you can swim 0:25, bike 1:55, and run 1:15 in individual TT’s, you can reasonable expect 0:28, 2:07, 1:23 in a 70.3. The cycling one is tough to fit into training but the easiest to extrapolate from known power values.

19

it’s really hard.

Extremely hard. What’s been frustrating is that I ran 1:22 in 2017 on a pretty hilly course (florida) and haven’t really been able to touch that since. I’ve had a 1:23 and a 1:24 in 2018 and 2019 but on easier courses and cooler weather. I do feel I’m a much better runner than I was in 2017 but I just haven’t been able to put it together in a race recently. Volume isn’t the problem as I’m typically running 40-45 mpw with the occasional 50ish thrown in. Finding balance with speed work and trying to stay healthy has been a bit of challenge as I tend to be injury prone. I think a lot of it is mental. I have no issues pushing the swim and bike but I have some kind of mental block on the run. Probably from a lack of confidence.

20

might be worth trying at some point basically soft pedaling the bike (i don’t actually mean soft pedal). my first “break” with a 70.3 run came after averaging prob 10% fewer watts than i had done in previous attempts. so i went from like 245-250 down to 225 or so. didn’t give up too much time on the bike (say, for argument’s sake i gave up - 2 x 90 = 3mins worth of watts on a 70.3), but ran a 1:17 on a slightly short (flat) course.