3 Disciplines Races Cancellation policy

Triathlon Forum
1

Currently, the race company 3Disciplines has moved to a cancellation policy for races which is absolutely appalling. If there is poor weather, they cancel the race within 30 minutes of the planned start time. Upon cancellation, you do not get any of your money back. They have cancelled multiple races this year because they “can only wait 30 minutes”. This seems like absolute BS to me. For example, at the South Beach Triathlon, in South Haven, there was severe weather and the race was cancelled within 30 minutes. They said “the city was forcing this on them”. After a brief talk with the city manager, this was a blatant lie. there was 400 people registered for the event, at a minimum of 80 dollars per athlete. The parking that was rented cost them roughly 3000 dollars. They were also taking registrations up to approximately 730, when the races started at 8, KNOWING that it would be delayed from the severe weather. 30 minutes after the race was cancelled, it was no longer raining AT ALL. They tore down the race venue and were gone by 10am.

Race directors, what other types of costs are associated with running a race like this? Also, if you own all of the timing equipment and course equipment, what type of costs are associated with a race. How many athletes need to participate in an event to break even?

Has anyone else had a horrible experience with this company? I have had more than a few over the years.

2

The only race I have had cancelled due to bad weather was last year’s NJ State sprint race where mid-way through the race a massive thunderstorm came overhead. I was out on the bike but many were still yet to start the swim. It was an obvious call to halt the race and cancel. I saw no-one upset.

In general, a last minute cancellation is not going to result in refunds. There are too many sunk costs by then. Sometimes local police will insist that the race is over by a set time, so a delay due to bad weather could cause that threshold to be breached, leading to a forced cancellation.

In your specific case, a time cut-off for the roads by the police could have been a factor, but if a 30 minute delay would have resulted in clear weather, then I can see the frustration, especially if they were still taking registrations just before the bad weather hit.

3

Other than South Beach, which races were cancelled?

I know several people close to the race organizer that may shed some insight.

I have not done a 3D race since 2007

4

Taking registrations that morning with a potential weather call is definitely bad form. However, when a race is legitimately cancelled you really shouldn’t expect anything back given all the sunk costs. You comments suggest that you think pre-race costs are minimal and you should get your money back…how wrong you are! Cancelling is the last thing an RD wants to do because if it happens too often it will mean lost future sales and possibly the end of the race. We used to have a really good sprint tri in Clearwater Fl that suffered a string of bad weather three years in a row (2 complete cancellations and 1 time converted to a swim-run). That race went defunct after the 3rd year.

5

Taking registrations that morning with a potential weather call is definitely bad form. However, when a race is legitimately cancelled you really shouldn’t expect anything back given all the sunk costs. You comments suggest that you think pre-race costs are minimal and you should get your money back…how wrong you are! Cancelling is the last thing an RD wants to do because if it happens too often it will mean lost future sales and possibly the end of the race. We used to have a really good sprint tri in Clearwater Fl that suffered a string of bad weather three years in a row (2 complete cancellations and 1 time converted to a swim-run). That race went defunct after the 3rd year.

I guess I was more frustrated with the 30 minute cancellation policy than anything. I never really expected to get a refund, but it seems like that is a very short window, as you typically have to wait 30 minutes after a lightning strike. If there is one lightning strike near the race start time, you are cancelling the race? What if the weather clears 30 minutes after that strike (as it did). If they have a road cut-off time, why not make everyone do the sprint and nix the Olympic? Do a Duathlon to keep people out of the water (as has happened in the past many times on Lake Michigan). There seems like many ways to get around a full cancellation after only 30 minutes.

6

I guess it depends on the weather. In some cases, waiting around for 30 mins would be pointless if all forecasts and radar show a deteriorating situation. But if there is just a one-off lightning strike, then I’m with you – wait and see if you can start a little later or convert to something else. Interestingly, at the defunct sprint tri that I was talking about, they delayed the race start as a fast moving lightning storm came over and dumped a ton of rain in a short time. When it passed they were able to do the swim and the run, but portions of the bike were under water so that’s how we ended up with an aquathlon. Getting even that was a pleasant surprise given that no one would have faulted the RD for canx the entire thing.

In your case, if the RD is too aggressive at cancelling, too often, he/she may find himself out of business.

7

You are asking and presenting a lot of “what if x happens, and y happens, and happens” and “why can’t they do this and that” questions.

With all of the logistic issues involved and getting everyone (race crew, volunteers, police, etc) on the same page a few minutes before the race begins, if you can’t pull it off smoothly, you’ll have people complaining that “this and that was poorly run”

It’s just not about the athletes that the RD has to be taken into considerations. It’s the volunteers, police, EMS, and etc. If there is a weather condition that’s severe enough to contemplate a cancellation then the community would probably rather see any EMS/Police resources to be out in the community than at some race site. You can’t set up volunteers and supplies at the aid stations during a lightning storm. You have to wait until it stops before you send volunteers out there. That takes time. Then, you have to consider what the fast moving rainstorm does to the bike/run course in terms of safety? What if there’s a lot of debris from trees spilling out all over the road and a lot of people crash because of that?

No RD wants to cancel a race on race day. Everything has been paid for. They don’t make 1 extra penny because they cancel a race. To the contrary, they now have to worry about getting rid of excess food, medals, shirts, swag, and etc

Taking registrations that morning with a potential weather call is definitely bad form. However, when a race is legitimately cancelled you really shouldn’t expect anything back given all the sunk costs. You comments suggest that you think pre-race costs are minimal and you should get your money back…how wrong you are! Cancelling is the last thing an RD wants to do because if it happens too often it will mean lost future sales and possibly the end of the race. We used to have a really good sprint tri in Clearwater Fl that suffered a string of bad weather three years in a row (2 complete cancellations and 1 time converted to a swim-run). That race went defunct after the 3rd year.

I guess I was more frustrated with the 30 minute cancellation policy than anything. I never really expected to get a refund, but it seems like that is a very short window, as you typically have to wait 30 minutes after a lightning strike. If there is one lightning strike near the race start time, you are cancelling the race? What if the weather clears 30 minutes after that strike (as it did). If they have a road cut-off time, why not make everyone do the sprint and nix the Olympic? Do a Duathlon to keep people out of the water (as has happened in the past many times on Lake Michigan). There seems like many ways to get around a full cancellation after only 30 minutes.

8

I have not done a 3D race since 2007

I gave up on 3D races in about 2003. It’s quite possible that they’ve gotten their act together since, but after a couple of bad experiences, I just decided I was done.

9

I have done a few of their races in the last 5 years - always well run and a good experience. Now and then weather does not cooperate, there is not much race crew can do about that.

10

A 30 minute cancellation policy is a bit absurd. There is no way they are actually running everything so close that there really is only a 30 minute window to get the race started. At most you’d be talking about pulling a few laggards off the course late in the day. But, the window easily could be an hour or so depending on how restrictive the permits are. At some point the roads are going to open back up and if not everyone, you need to have almost all the racers off the roads at that point…

As for refunds, I personally have never been involved in a race that was canceled but, I look at it the same as any of the several random reasons why you may not be able to finish (or even start) a race based on bad luck. A total cancellation is really no different than a crash or major equipment failure other than that you get more people to commiserate with. Either way, it ends your day and you don’t get your money back.

OTOH you could just do bike races. I was involved in putting on a day of criterium racing this summer and a heavy rain started right before the start and went on all day. We had an ambulance on site so we were good to go. Not everyone who crashed sought treatment from the EMTs but at a couple points during the day there was a line . . . . . . And if that sounds crazy, don’t complain about cancellations :wink:

11

I have not done a 3D race since 2007

I gave up on 3D races in about 2003. It’s quite possible that they’ve gotten their act together since, but after a couple of bad experiences, I just decided I was done.

What about saying on the website that a race is USAT sanctioned, and then not getting it sanctioned, and not telling anyone? What about sending volunteers on the course with no knowledge of the actual course? What about tearing down the event venue when there are still athletes on the course?

I think I am giving up on them permanently as well. It’s just not worth the money. Especially with the price increase in their races this year!

12

what everyone is forgetting is that these are companies and the main thing lacking is customer service. The participants are indeed the customers and if the company ships a package and its damaged in transit by some 3rd party, they don’t want the company to say well it ain’t our fault you’re SOL. Many participants drive across states, book hotels, transport bikes and much more for these races and need to be treated like they had done so to go to YOUR race.

For everyone saying safety is priority and haven’t raced 3d before, they hadn’t gone to the Motor City tri this year with fist size concrete chunks in the bike course and holes, roots, and improperly marked parts of the run course.

Have i raced with better companies? Definitely. Will i race 3d again? Maybe depending on how all of this moves forward.

Instead of bashing everything on here I’d like to propose something I haven’t seen in my 2 years of racing. With how much all of this stuff already costs, I’d be willing to pay up to $5 / race for a ‘weather insurance’ to make sure in the event of lightning, etc. i am fully refunded the cost of the event, no questions asked.

Well, thats my 2 cents.

13

Some posts below mention races being turned into aquathlon or duathlon based on last minute weather issues.

That implies that the RD probably had “contingency plan A, B, or C” in hand…as I suspect it’s not trivial to move a course or volunteers around to suite a revised time schedule on course.

Is it common for RD to have contingency plans for weather or such?

Or some RDs are better at rolling with the cards dealt than others?

14

The ability to have plans B and C will depend on so many variables, one of the biggest being the logistics of the venue. For example, if the swim and run portions are in a state park on closed roads, it will likely be easy to turn the race into an aquathon, or duathlon. But if it’s a city venue with the bike and run on public roads, alternatives may be much more challenging logistically.

15

“Race directors, what other types of costs are associated with running a race like this? Also, if you own all of the timing equipment and course equipment, what type of costs are associated with a race. How many athletes need to participate in an event to break even?”

I’ll respond to this part since you asked (I have no affiliation with 3D or know anyone there or how they produce their events)

Sunk costs before we say go on race day for the events I put on.

Permits (location, town, county, DOT all non refundable if event canceled within 7 days of event date)
Shelters/lodges/parking (non refundable)
Police (paid in full 48 hours before event non refundable after that),
EMT (paid in full 48 hours before event non refundable after that)
Lifeguards (once they show up they will get [aid in full for the day per the contract)
Food, drink, etc (paid in full 4 days before event)
Shirts (paid and finished at least 7 days before race day)
Medals (paid 30 days before race day)
Insurance
Bibs
Marketing
Employee wages (both office and site crews)
If I have an agreement with a charity group to provide volunteers they will get paid the full agreed upon amount even if the event gets canceled on race day, heck we’d pay them even if we had to cancel a day or 2 out

Often times for larger events staff will be on site days in advance building out the infrastructure for the event. We do our own timing but there would be prep time getting things ready before race day (testing systems, planning layouts, testing/programming chips). For events we don’t own but provide timing services to they would pay in full the minimum contracted fee if canceled on race day since my crew still set up and I still have to pay them (our contracts state 72 hours notice)

By race day I have no more outstanding expenses other then police/medical working longer then contracted for and us having to pay more and employe payroll which will be paid in 2 weeks. All other expenses have been paid in advance

I’d agree that 30 minutes is really short but I don’t know what their agreements are with police, DOT, lifeguards, towns, host locations, volunteers, etc. Its really hard to hold a start much longer then that

16

You bring up an excellent point about contingency plans.

I think a contingency plan is key because this is a business. It seems foolish to put on multi-thousand dollar events and have no plan, and especially since there are weather forecasts that would hint at a potential problem on race day.

This thread has given a lot of respect to race directors and provided a lot of excuses for them, and this may be the problem. Other than Ironman brand races, I do not think too many race companies are doing well (making $$) and I think that is because their customers are getting fed up. Races are getting more expensive and quality is not going up. I think that if race companies are not innovative in fixing this problem, many will go out of business due to poor attendance.

3D’s Lumberman race this summer offered a half-ironman, Olympic, sprint, and super sprint distance. The event was canceled due to weather 30 minutes after it was supposed to start. The weather was beautiful within 1 hour. The race was to start at 7:30am, and the bike cutoff for the half was at 12:30pm…
I do not see how you can cancel a race in this situation, or rationalize the cancel. Everyone should have been offered to race oly or sprint and the event would have at least been an event. I know a few race companies that promise some sort of race in the event of bad weather, and I think this is the right way to do it.

Someone also mentioned that the RD doesn’t like having to get rid of the medals, food, and shirts in the event of a canceled race… This seems like the least of our problems, and would be solved by hosting some sort of race instead of packing up and taking all the goods paid for by registration. At least tri for us (pun intended).

Athletes train hard and spend a lot of money on these races, and in the event that unforeseen conditions happen, the RD should make it right instead of making excuses. It is pure laziness not having a contingency plan, and not having one promotes canceling races early and often (after 30 minutes, 2016 Lumberman, 2016 South Haven, and many more tris to be canceled unless policies change).

17

No RD wants to cancel a race on race day. Everything has been paid for. They don’t make 1 extra penny because they cancel a race. To the contrary, they now have to worry about getting rid of excess food, medals, shirts, swag, and etc

yeah and then they have to worry about the social media backlash hurting future business.

18

You bring up an excellent point about contingency plans.

I think a contingency plan is key because this is a business. It seems foolish to put on multi-thousand dollar events and have no plan, and especially since there are weather forecasts that would hint at a potential problem on race day.

This thread has given a lot of respect to race directors and provided a lot of excuses for them, and this may be the problem. Other than Ironman brand races, I do not think too many race companies are doing well (making $$) and I think that is because their customers are getting fed up. Races are getting more expensive and quality is not going up. I think that if race companies are not innovative in fixing this problem, many will go out of business due to poor attendance.

3D’s Lumberman race this summer offered a half-ironman, Olympic, sprint, and super sprint distance. The event was canceled due to weather 30 minutes after it was supposed to start. The weather was beautiful within 1 hour. The race was to start at 7:30am, and the bike cutoff for the half was at 12:30pm…
I do not see how you can cancel a race in this situation, or rationalize the cancel. Everyone should have been offered to race oly or sprint and the event would have at least been an event. I know a few race companies that promise some sort of race in the event of bad weather, and I think this is the right way to do it.

Someone also mentioned that the RD doesn’t like having to get rid of the medals, food, and shirts in the event of a canceled race… This seems like the least of our problems, and would be solved by hosting some sort of race instead of packing up and taking all the goods paid for by registration. At least tri for us (pun intended).

Athletes train hard and spend a lot of money on these races, and in the event that unforeseen conditions happen, the RD should make it right instead of making excuses. It is pure laziness not having a contingency plan, and not having one promotes canceling races early and often (after 30 minutes, 2016 Lumberman, 2016 South Haven, and many more tris to be canceled unless policies change).

I can verify that the Lumberman triathlon was cancelled as the user above has described. Race directors and the higher-echelon staff know that weather in the state of Michigan is quite unpredictable. This kind of variable must be dealt with accordingly. I second the motion to investigate more innovative methods to protect the interests of the consumer (athletes, family, friends, etc.). Months are passionate training ought not to lead up to such an anti-climatic outcome.

19

They said “the city was forcing this on them”. After a brief talk with the city manager, this was a blatant lie.

That is quite a statement by you. Why would the city manager be privy to the conversations back and forth between the RD and the onsite folks? Chances are it was a police officer who was “speaking on behalf of” the city.

Regarding the 30 minutes window, that is really simple to explain: you cannot close down roads all day. The permitting process gives you a window to conduct the race and that is it. You don’t get to go over your allotment because it was raining…

20

First things first, any cancellation less than a week out is most likely going to be no refunds, as explained, most of the money is already spent.

Secondly, what is your solution?

How long should everyone wait?
How long after the last lightning sighting can you start?
Do you wait to have the bike/run course inspected for fallen trees, debris, or water over the road?
Would you be willing to pay more for a race that pays to have police, EMS, etc. out of the course longer if you have to start late? (pay everyone for 2 more hours?)
If a large storm system is moving through, but you have a 30 minute or hour window without any lightning, do you still start even though there is a good possibility that there will be more lightning/severe weather later?

You also have to remember, that not everyone wants to race in bad weather or on wet roads. I was in Niles that day and the same storms rolled though. They announced a 30 minute delay, then said it would be a rolling start bike/run. When the weather started clearing up and we had an 18 minute window without lightning they asked who wanted to ride and only about 3 people (myself included) said yes, we we just ran a 5k in the rain. Point being, not as many people as you might think want to wait around 90 minutes to run a shortened race in the rain.

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