3:00 Marathoners ... tell me your plan

I’m interested in hearing from folks who have gone sub-3 … maybe in the 2:50 - 3:00 range. What did YOU do?

I’m not interested in hearing from folks telling me what I have to do. I am interested in hearing what folks actually did to get into the sub 3 playground. I know that everyone is different. That is why I’m asking. I’d like to see what spectrum is.

For what it’s worth, I’m hoping to go sub-3 in December. Previous PR: 3:05. I’m planning to spend a lot of time in the 80 mpw range until December. And yes, I’ve been in the 80 mpw neighborhood before. I know what it looks like :slight_smile:

Two schools of thought:

Without a huge history of a large running base and/or great running genetics: Load up on the miles, some slow - some fast. Moreso easy/slow than fast. One tempo + one shorter speed workout a week with the speedwork becoming a tempo run on odd weeks (or every third week). 80-110 mpw is kind of the norm for this.

If you have a huge history - there’s no need to run that much. concentrate on quality workouts and make sure to get an “easy pace” long run (75%-80% of race distance) each week. If you got the legs for it - that can also work for people without a huge history but the talent/speed to run faster. This your 30-60mpw guys.

shrugs It will literally vary from person to person and most people fall inbetween to get to sub3.

Or you can just run for President and just say you did it.

I ran a PR of 2:59:57 at last year’s MCM, so I qualify by the barest of margins. I was on track for around 2:57 for most of the race, then cramped 4k out and had to speed-limp it in the rest of the way. Currently 45 years old, and training approach is guided by the general fragility that comes with that.

My preparation was fairly simple. Gradual build of steady miles over the course of 6 months, following the general approach of running all steady at a mix of distances (a mix of the BarryP 3-2-1 mix and a Pfitz approach, but without the speedwork). Got up to 60-70 mpw at peak, longest runs were 2x22, 2x20. I think that the regular medium-long runs were key to the training. Times earlier in the year were a 17:34 5k and a 1:23 HM. Key to my racing strategy was using HR to keep a lid on my pace in the first 15 miles.

The first time I ran sub 3 it was with a previous PR of 3:12. The biggest thing I did was load up on mileage. I ran everywhere I could. I ran to work. I ran home from work. I ran to my girlfriend’s place and showered there before we went out. I ran to meet friends for a run. I ran to meet friends at (dive) bars.

train hard for an IM. screw it up and walk a third of the run. sign up to do a redemption marathon 6 weeks later and kill it!

or

get a good solid base. run no less than 60miles per week for at least 12 weeks, incorporating tempo and speed work as well as race pace training. do a HM 4 weeks out and evaluate where you are at. If your predictor race indicates that you are on track…create a race plan that will get you to the line on time and then execute.

Do this:

http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf
.

I was one of those “just barely” sub 3 guys and to do it I trained that year almost exclusively for a fall marathon. Not much biking or swimming. I had 5-6 weeks in the 60-70 mile range. Ran twice a day a couple days a week. Did a couple 22 milers. Also did Yasso 800’s at the track 3x / month. In retrospect, I think I did a lot of long and a lot of fast, but what I think was missing was the mid-distance (5-7 miles) tempo work.

I think the maximum mileage I’ve ever done in marathon training was 60mpw, and I’ve gone under 3:00 in 5 out of 6 marathons I’ve run. (The one where I didn’t break 3:00 was apeshit hot - so no chance for me anyway).

My weekly training plans were something like this (planning to run 5-6 days a week), building from 25mpw to 60mpw by the end:

(1) long run - 10 - 20 miles (depending on where I was in the build up) - NOTE - getting in at least (2) 20 mile runs before a marathon has been very important (for me at least). (1) interval or hill repeat day(3-4) 5-9 mile tempo run days - optimally going over topography similar to the upcoming race.off day after the long runs (when they’re up over 15 miles for sure).I don’t know if this is optimum - I just know that this is what I have done. I must admit that I wasn’t as rigorous about doing the intervals and hills as I should have been. Had I done those properly, I may not have had some of the late race flame out’s that happened on a couple of occasions.

I run with a GPS watch to track my pace, and I don’t use the HRM.

I’ve done it two different ways.

First way, I peaked at 75 miles per week and did 60 or more for 6 or 8, (can’t recall exactly), consecutive weeks. Included a long run varying from 14’ish at the start of the program to 21 at the peak of the program. I believe I did 3 or 4, 21 milers separated by a week although I may have been dumb and done them consecutively, (I don’t write this stuff down). Anyway, after a couple of unsuccessful attempts at breaking 3 hours, I got ticked off and piled on lots, (for me), of slow, (for me), mileage as a way of cracking it. All my runs were of moderate pace. No real speed work to speak of. I ran 2:56 in what could have been the worst/windiest race I’ve ever done in my life. I honestly thought I could have gone sub 2:50 if the weather had been perfect, (when is it ever though), it was that bad and I felt that strong. In the end though, I really felt like I had given up too much speed for endurance and could have optimized thing even better between speed and endurance, but I did get pretty darned far into the race before feeling lousy, (mile 23 which is good for me), and thought if was genetically gifted, (and not lazy), to do more mileage without getting injured and could maybe do 80 to 90 miles a week, I could actually race the whole stupid thing and not have a 23mile race with a 3.2 mile sufferfest at the end of it. But that never happened.

The other way was much less mileage, much more speed… and much more suffering over the second half half of the race. I think I probably peaked at 60 miles… maybe. Every run I did was a hard tempo run. I hit the track once a week, (800’s or miles). It was exactly the wrong way to do it in my opinion. I hit the half at 1:25 or 1:23, and faded spectacularly.

All of that being said, I think it’s pretty personal as to what works best. I’m sure there’s guys that can hop off the couch and go sub 3 with natural talent or people like me who need a little more endurance than speed to have a good race and others who are the opposite.

That’s my story

Best of luck in December.

Do this, if you’re not already:

http://www.newbalance.com/Good-Form---What-Is-Good-Form/good_form_what_is_good_form,default,pg.html.

I tried and failed. My brother tried and succeeded. He’s a better road runner than me, and I’m a better trail runner than him (maybe). His 5k PR is 18:00; mine is 18:30. His 1/2 marathon PR is 2:25, mine is 2:28.

We both ran the SF marathon on June 16th.

Him:http://www.strava.com/activities/60947145
Me:http://www.strava.com/activities/60976576

I slowed on the bridge, cracked at mile 12, and crumbled at mile 20. He stayed strong the whole race.

Here’s his Strava overview: http://www.strava.com/athletes/1631660#interval?interval=201324&interval_type=week&chart_type=miles&year_offset=0.

He peaked at 55 miles 3 weeks before the race.

His keys to success are: have good genes, put in some miles, do some long runs, HTFU on race day. He is way better at grinding than me, which is why he smokes me at road races, but I can recover faster and am a better downhill runner - which helps for trail running.

Everyone is different but I cranked up the volume from 50mpw to 70mpw and did every run (except 2 recovery runs each week) in the “mountains”. By mountains, I mean the Santa Monica Mountains. It’s just fire roads but I’ll climb over 2k feet in 15-17 miles.

Never did any speed work outside of two half marathons in the training leading up to goal marathon. One of the two races was a PR (and 1500ft of climbing) and the second one was “raced” for 10 miles and then gave up (jogged in).

Long short: I benefited from strength workouts (aka hills; however my hills are 2 miles long at times). I know plenty if people who benefit from speed. I just burn out and get injured with speed.

Another tried and failed. But that was because I got the flu the week of my A race and lost 7 pounds while staying in bed for three days that week. Started the race but dropped out after 5 miles. Sucks because in training I was easily on goal for somewhere in the 2:55 range. Some of my 20 milers were run comfortably at 7:10 per mile pace and my tempo runs were in the 6:20 range.

I used the Pfitzinger-Douglas Advanced Marathoning book and did the 12 week under 70 plan. Peak weeks were 69 miles. Biggest month was about 265 miles leading up to the race. The book is awesome from many different angles and I would highly recommend it to everyone just in general.

i started with a pretty decent base, and what i mean by that is was doing a long run once a week of 13 miles for about 6 weeks in a row, total weekly mileage no more than 30 miles, easy pace though. I started training for the marathon on Nov 29th 2011 for a Jan 15th 2012 marathon. So roughly 45 days with a short taper. No speed work or intense intervals and only about 35 miles per week on average. focused on race day strategy during runs of negative splitting my workouts. One thing i dont see many people mention is HR intensity. I did almost every run at 10-14 beats below LT. My LT is 173. So I ran first 13.1 at 160 HR and a 1:29 half, then let me HR creep up to 164 from miles 13-22 and the last few miles let it go up to 168 and gradually above 170 by the end. Ate one gel every 45 minutes with some salt stick here and there. Water only. my time was 3:00:09. Mistake was i depended on pace of garmin which was under 6:51 so I should have beat the 3:00 mark, but when i finished my distance was 26.4 miles. Ran extra with all the bobbing and weaving thru people. Also as hard as it is to ignore the ego, I ran my race, not caring who passed me.

I went from a 2:59 to a 2:48 in 1 year on the same race course. I believe what did it for me was doing the 100 runs 100 days challenge. I aimed to average between 80-100k/wk (up from 50-70k/wk). I followed the Jack Daniels Running Forumula training plan and read his book end to end. Most of my k’s are run slow to very slow, with 2 key speed workout per week.

Another tried and failed. But that was because I got the flu the week of my A race and lost 7 pounds while staying in bed for three days that week. Started the race but dropped out after 5 miles. Sucks because in training I was easily on goal for somewhere in the 2:55 range. Some of my 20 milers were run comfortably at 7:10 per mile pace and my tempo runs were in the 6:20 range.

I used the Pfitzinger-Douglas Advanced Marathoning book and did the 12 week under 70 plan. Peak weeks were 69 miles. Biggest month was about 265 miles leading up to the race. The book is awesome from many different angles and I would highly recommend it to everyone just in general.

Pfitz 18/70 is a great plan. I actually haven’t gone under 3:00, but feel I would have in Boston in 2012, but it got ‘wicked’ hot and I wilted in the heat. I ran a 36:34 10k two weeks out, so I feel I had the fitness, but the conditions got in a lot of runners’ ways. I used a modified Pfitz plan to run a 3:04 six weeks after Vegas 70.3 last year on a very hilly course. I’m planning on using the a Pfitz plan for Boston this coming year.

Here’s my log leading up to the 2011 NYC Marathon.

http://www.workoutlog.com/log/public/pmcgahan/log.cfm?StartDate=08%2F08%2F2011&WeeksToShow=13&submit=update+report&ButtonCount=12&Move=1&StartWeek=2009-11-01+00%3A00%3A00.0

I prepared this article for our running club many years ago, I thought you may find it helpful.

Marathon** Training & Racing **

After finishing 22 marathons ranging in time from sub 2:40to over 4 hours with most the them in the 2:40’s, I’ve learned that running26.2 miles isn’t the smartest idea and it’s going to hurt, and hurt a lot. Over the years, I’ve learned to appreciateand respect the distance.

Framework
To prepare for running a marathon,my training typically average 50-60 miles per week for about 4 months prior torace day, peaking 3 weeks before the race in the mid 60’s. I find that this is a good weekly distancethat my body can handle without getting injured. During this 4 month period I build up my longrun to 20-22 miles and usually get in three runs of at least 20 miles. My last long run is 21 days before therace.

The Secret Sauce
While I don’t believe there is anyone secret to running a successful marathon, I do believe success hinges on glycogenpreservation, lactate threshold, and race planning.

v On average, runners burn 100 calories permile. This energy comes from a combinationof glycogen and fat. While fat istypically abundant, glycogen is limited. On average, humans store enough glycogen to race 16-20 milesbefore bonking or “hitting the wall”. This brings us to my first lesson point which is “teach your body to store more glycogen”. Simply running 20-22 easy miles at an easypace (about 70-75% effort) is not likely to increase your glycogen storagebaseline because the slower pace allows your body to use fat for fuel. For this reason, I incorporate threshold ormarathon pace running throughout my long runs. This faster pace forces my body to shift away from using fat for energy andforces it to use more glycogen. Generally speaking, the faster you run the more glycogen you burn. Additionally, I don’t focus oncarbo-loading the night before or eating gels during my long trainingruns. I want to push my body to thebrink of running out of glycogen during these runs, so my body can adapt byincreasing glycogen storage capacity. ****

v In conjunction with teaching the body to storemore glycogen, 2 of my 6 weekly runs are focused on improving lactate thresholdbringing us to my second lesson point which is *“train your body to clear lactic acid”. * Mostrunners do not focus on improving their lactate threshold because tempo orthreshold runs aren’t fun. My thresholdruns usually consist of 2 sets of 3 miles (6 miles total) at a pace about 30seconds faster than marathon pace. Thepurpose is to build strength, teach my body to work hard when tired, improve myability to resist lactic acid accumulation, and delay muscle fatigue. While speed-work is important, intervalsessions are typically excluded from my training program. Instead I mix in 4-6 striders of 20-30seconds during 1-2 of my weekly easy runs. I feel this is enough to fire the fast twitchmuscle fibers without straining my body. My logic is that at no point during a marathon am I trying to run a 70second quarter mile; instead, my goal it to simply run the last 10K as fast asmy first 10k.

v My final lesson point is “train your mind to ignore your body”. Everyone feels good at the beginning of amarathon. Consequently, most runnersdestroy months of hard work by starting out like a jackass. To avoid this common problem, I stage my racein 4 zones:

o Zone1: First 10k
o Zone2: Half-marathon
o Zone3: Mile 20
o Zone4: Last 10k

I feel breaking the race into 4unique zones allows me to concentrate and implement my race plan. My primary goal for zone 1 is to start nofaster than my projected goal pace. I’mok starting slower, but never faster. These early miles are crucial in finding the right rhythm, not wastingenergy, and warming up my muscles slowly. As a speaker once said at the Boston Marathon “if you don’t feel likeyou’re going too slow, you’re probably going too fast”. Once the initial 10k is finished, zone 2 isabout patience and consistency. It’salso a time when I eat 2 gels (mile 9 & mile 13). It is imperative during this time to ignoreyour body telling you to run faster. Duringthis zone, you have plenty of glycogen and little muscle fatigue. It is easy to get caught up thinking that youcan run so much faster, especially running through crowds of cheeringspectators. Keep your cool and enjoythese miles, because the last 13 miles will not be as kind. After the halfway point, miles 14-20 or zone3 is a transitional time. During thesemiles, you start to feel some muscle fatigue (especially in the lateteens). This is a zone where the racereally begins, and these miles will feel harder. There’s still a lot of race remaining, it’simportant to stick to your race plan, remain patient and focus on hitting yourmile splits. Also, you’ll most likelypass other runners who started too fast, so remember to run the tangents asmuch as possible which may involve running through the middle of otherrunners. Finally, mile 20 and thebeginning of zone 4! At this stage ofthe race, either you have something in the tank or not. If you assessed your fitness probably andstuck to your race plan, there’s no reason to leave anything on thecourse. I approach these miles like I’mrunning a 10k race. At this stage duringthe race, I am completely focused on passing anyone ahead of me. These miles are the most enjoyable of therace for me because I’m no longer holding anything back. I’ve basically done a 20 mile warm-up, to runa 10k race.

Training Pace for Easy Runs
Historically, most of my trainingruns were between 6:45 – 7:00 minutes per mile. Today, I focus more on heart rate and keep my heart rate about 75% ofmax. Coincidently, this is typicallyaround 7:00 per mile, but on hot days is slower. This allows my body to recover for my thresholdruns. Regardless of your ability, Irecommend keeping your easy runs easy or about 70-75% effort.

Gel Strategy
To delay and possibly prevent theonset of glycogen deprivation, I consume about 4-5 gels during themarathon. Our bodies can digest 200-300calories per hour, so taking a gel about every 25-30 minutes will put sugarinto the bloodstream quickly and more importantly preserve glycogen. In the last several marathons, I’ve eaten agel (or Honey Stinger) at mile 5, 9, 13, 17, & 21. While it may seem excessive, I haven’t bonkedwhile employing this strategy.

Final Thoughts
While many runners have visions ofrunning greatness, the most important thing aside from the proper training isproperly assessing your fitness, developing a race plan, and sticking to theplan. Just because you see someone youtypically beat in races bouncing along ahead of you doesn’t mean you need to runwith him. Most likely that guy willprobably come back in the late miles.

I’m interested in hearing from folks who have gone sub-3 … maybe in the 2:50 - 3:00 range. What did YOU do?
Show up for the race feeling comfortable running 26.2 miles in 2:50 - 3:00 range.

Most days I used to run 10 miles at lunch and 18 miles after dark. 26.2 was just a normal day.

Depending on your age & base, 80mpw could be a recipe for injury. I have run 6 marathons, all sub 3 and believe the best approach for me has been to limit the mileage to allow my legs to recover. I have never even managed 50mpw (80km), but I typically take 2 rest days per week. I do, however, run hard every outing at half-marathon pace (8-15k) except for my weekly long run which ramps from 20k (13m) to 36k (22m) on Sunday mornings.

Don’t believe my approach will work for everyone, and definitely is counter to many gurus & coaches out there. It works for me…and I’m tracking to attempt a 2:45 marathon in late October.