25c tires penalty vs 23c tires

Front wheel: Enve 6 SES clincher (i.e. wide rim)
Rear wheel: Hed Jet 9 C2 (also wide rim)

Tires: Vittoria Open Corsa CX (23c and 25c)
Latex tubes

So, the 23c tires mates more perfectly to the rim, as per the design of various rims (it could be my Enve, or Hed, or Zipp) which, of late, are the wide-rim variety. What’s the aero penalty of the 25c tire vs the 23c tire (i.e., how many seconds per 40km or whatever metric)? I know there’s a very slight weight penalty, but I am assuming that is not much of a concern here.

So, would anyone make any guesses how slower than baseline the following would be: (baseline = 23c tires on front and rear)

Option 1: 25c tires front and rear
Option 2: 23c front tire, 25c rear tire

The wider 25c tire should be a tad more comfortable, and should be ever so slightly less prone to flatting, right? (that’s pure speculation on my part, so please correct me if I’m wrong). The Vittoria Open Corsa CXs, in particular (in both 23c and 25c) seem extra supple, and somewhat “thin” (but roll extremely nicely).

Roads in my country (3rd World) aren’t exactly the best, so maybe the 25c tires might be better overall?

FWIW, this is for RACE conditions. For training, I’m still looking for 25c tires that are more bullet proof (that will most likely not roll as well as the Vittorias; but hey, it’s training). Alternatively, if 23c tires front and rear are BEST by a significant margin (i.e., minutes over a 90km ride), then I’ll just relegate the Vittoria 25c as training tires…

Rappstar recently posted that he used 23c front, 25c rear GP 4000’s when we won Ironman NY.

25c was for comfort, but rear only since aero is less important there.

I would ride a 25 rear if it would fit my bike. I would also consider it as a front if the roads are really rough like Steelhead.

Bit of a gear-head here, so I’d like to weight in… I’ve searched the ST database for threads on this numerous times and haven’t really found a “scientific” conclusion because it seems most of the decision as to tire size depends on variables that only each individual knows. For example: rider weight, road/pavement texture, route type (heavy climbing vs. speed cornering), rim type and size, and of course riding style.

For what it’s worth, when healthy and at peak training, I try and ride between 400-600 miles per week (because I hate running!). I have two road bikes (road and TT) both with narrow carbon clincher rims for racing. I train with the heaviest metal clinchers I can find (Ksyrium Elites). My race psi is between 95psi-105psi (depending on road/weather conditions), and my training psi is about 90. I am 5’8" and 153lbs, love to climb and live in an area with great road surfaces and very rolly - hilly routes.

All of my tires are 23’s. My race tires are Continental Grand Prix Triathlon (predecessor to the Conti Grand Prix TT’s) which are hard to find in the US. My road bike go-fast wheels currently have Conti Ultra Race and the training wheels, the heavy Mavics, basically use whatever is to old or chewed up to race on. Currently, the TT trainers have old Hutchinsons and the road trainers have old Pro Race 3’s. Regarding puncture resistance… I believe I flat about the same as everyone else, but maybe a little less with the Continentals. They seem to be the best performing tire I have ridden to date (albeit typically heavier), but I haven’t tried everyone. Hutchinson is another well-performing tire and seem to better balance toughness with weight. I think the newer Hutchinson Top Speeds now have a kevlar belt like the Conti’s, so they may be my next test piece.

The only tire(s) that have been an absolute failure in my experience have been Schwalbe’s Ultremo ZX. I absolutely could not keep them inflated. The roads around me are very good and I flatted so much with those tires that Schwalbe actually sent me a new set and the same thing happened. They are just way too thin to trust for longer rides. The Vittoria’s have a similar feel, so I stay away from them.

I would like to try a 25 in the rear of the TT bike, although I’m not sure it would fit, to see if there is any comfort difference on longer rides. In your cases if the roads around you are bad then logically a fatter tires with a little less pressure would help prevent sharp punctures, but not pinch flats. But again, I think the decision needs to be made based on the variables above, not only road quality.

Rappstar recently posted that he used 23c front, 25c rear GP 4000’s when we won Ironman NY.

25c was for comfort, but rear only since aero is less important there.

“When we won”?!? I like the royal “we”, but when Jordan wins, it’s a win for all of us, haha! :slight_smile:
Just teasing…

Anyway, yes, I do remember reading that… so I guess there’s hardly an aero penalty hit for a 25c rear tire, so I guess that’s the way to go.

Am still undecided whether to go 25c for the front on a wide rim like the Enve (26mm outer width)…

Many people have said that the difference in comfort is very noticeable. I would argue that it is noticeable, but don’t know if I would qualify that with “very”. My 27c tires on my road commuter is VERY noticeable, though. :slight_smile:

For a HIM race, I might be more comfortable on the 25c front tire, but how many seconds/minutes would I lose (IF ANY!!!) over 90km, and would I be fresher for the run because of that? Hey, I can make guesses, but I like the ST collective guessing as well…

Quoting from Josh through Lennard Zinn (through Velonews):

In general, a wider tire of (the) same construction will have lower rolling resistance for exactly the reasons (you stated). Ironically, the best description and data on this comes from studies done in Britain in the 1800’s looking to optimize the width and diameter of wheels for locomotives. There is also a lot of great info related to this in “Bicycling Science” from MIT press, as well as Paul Van Valkenberg’s writing on racecar tires.

Generally, though, the decrease in rolling resistance becomes smaller as the tires get bigger. So for example, going from a 19mm to a 20mm may save 1 watt, from a 20mm to a 21mm may save 0.8 watt and from a 23mm to a 25mm may save 0.3 watt. There is great data on this in “Bicycling Science,” using old Avocet Fasgrip tires, which were available from 18-32mm. The 28mm and 32mm were nearly identical, but moving from 18mm to 25mm saved a few watts.

What they are missing is the aerodynamic piece. We have data from the Zipp 303 launch showing the 303 with different width tires (see graph). The figure tells the story of how you can really optimize for tires below a certain (width) number, but eventually the tire really dominates the airflow and ruins everything. In general, our wheels are optimized around 23mm tires, which means that 21mm tires usually run about equal, maybe a fraction of a watt faster, but don’t change the behavior of the wheel. Moving to a 25mm adds drag, but can also change the stall behavior of the wheel. And by the time you are at 27mm, you have something that behaves quite differently.

The question really needs to be in regards to the balance of lower Crr (coefficient of rolling resistance) from the wider tire against the aero penalty. The 303 was designed to be as good as possible with 23mm tires, and as a result, its rim is 28.5mm wide. To behave similarly with the 25mm, it would likely have to be at least 2mm wider. In the graph you see how the 25mm tire has the same curve shape as the 23mm tire on the X45 (code for 303FC clincher). The 27mm tire is on the 285FC (code for 303FC tubular), and you notice that not only is the drag higher, but the curve shape is completely different. In fact, the curve shape looks more like the Easton or Mavic. This is indicative of the rim not being able to clean up the dirty air behind the tire. Ultimately, the offset should be Crr watts vs. Aero watts. In this case you have grams of drag on the left; every nine grams is one watt, so from 23mm to 25mm, you have nearly no penalty up to 10 degrees, and then three-to-six watts at the higher yaw. With the 27mm, you have something like no penalty to five degrees, and then a five-to-eight watt penalty after that.

Ultimately for the Specialized I would say that the 0.2 watt (0.3 to 0.8 watt) of rolling resistance does not overcome the zero-to-six-watt aero penalty.

Last interesting note: we have been working with Jordan Rapp on this since he noticed that his ‘training Firecrest’ wheels with 25’s were ‘twitchy’ compared to his race wheels with 23’s… we thought this might be largely aerodynamic, but the shorter contact patch (you) discuss is actually the culprit; the longer contact patch serves to resist steering input and adds a slight damping effect to steering inputs. By lowering tire pressure to increase contact patch, the effect could be eliminated, even though the aero properties of the wheel remain the same.

In the last paragraph, I also did feel that my front wheel (Enve Smart 6 clincher) was a tad twitchier than my 2009 C2 Hed Jet 6 on 23c.

So, right now, I think I will stick with 23c front, 25c rear for races. And probably 25c front/rear for training.