Intelligence sources strongly suggest Shimano Ultegra undergoes a massive redesign for '05 to include complete redesign of cranks and bottom bracket and inclusion of 10 speed rear end.
Confidence is high that this information is correct.
Shortages of 9 speed for '04 already reported by Bicycle Retailer and Industry News magazine.
It’s probably just 04 Dura Ace. I wouldn’t be surprised to see an upgrade to carbon cranks with 05 Dura Ace in an attempt to keep up with Campy Chorus. Campy will still be a step ahead with their Record and the fact you can get 10 sp all the way down to Centaur.
Personally I don’t see a lot of real world riding advantages of 10 sp over 9 sp. The closer ratios offered with compact cranks are proably more significant.
what is the benefit of 10 speed Dura Ace, Tom?
kind of lost on why I should by it. I would only get the cassette, chain, shifters, derailleur as I use Rotor Cranks and Zipp aero brakes.
is it reliable and does it perform as well at 9sp?
Sources suggest there will “never” be a carbon Shimano crank. Reliable sources.
For more info on 10 speed please stay tuned. (Hint, in the last four days I’ve purchased $27,000 worth of components and only slept 6 hours).
“Shortages of 9 speed for '04 already reported by Bicycle Retailer and Industry News magazine.”
Are you implying that Shimano is phasing them out to wait for 2005 10 speed? I believe that is incorrect. My understanding is that the Ultegra and 105 shortages have everything to do with poor forecasting of the European road market on the part of Shimano.
That information- Shimano’s strategic motives, are absolutely off limits to everyone except guys like Gerard and other true “insiders”. I usually get my info from second tier personalities such as product managers, etc.
It is hard to say what is going on. One thing I do smell in the wind, and this is not hype: Shortages. I went through living hell to get a record group. Vaporware is in the air. We have had no problem getting Duar-Ace groups, there must be over a dozen of them in the store now and at least six bikes with them already on. Bar end shifters for them are another story…
I have seen '04 Campy Veloce in 10 speed as well. I don’t think there’s any advantage to 10 speed over 9. In fact, I do very well in our area on my old 7 speed Cannondale. That bike stays on the trainer most of the time, but I do ride it outdoors occassionally. 9 speed is plenty, but when/if I get my Campy equipped bike, I’ll get 10 speed. Not because I need it, but because it’s what they make.
RP
Here I go again…BWAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAA (ghasp, cough, gag…) AAAAaaaaah…um…
Cerveloguy hit it right on the head. About Time ShimaNO catches up…and to think that they would take current DA and turn it into Ultegra…that would be a first for ShimaNO (great idea though - they could copy Campy in that repect).
And here we go again with “Why 10 over 9”…we go right back to “Why 8 over 7”, “Why 7 over 6”…blah blah blah. What I think is really funny is that people with Shimano are going ga ga over this whole “Compact” crank thing to try and get less jumps with their gearing…I never had that problem with my 10 speed stuff. 11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23 (53/42).
9 speed v. 10 speed is a moot point to me. I don’t care how many speeds the rear cassette accomodates. I can do well with a 7 speed where I live. I can also do just fine with 8, 9 or 10. I guess what I should say is that 10 speed isn’t a selling point to me. I can take it or leave it. What I want is Campy quality, and I can get that with either 9 or 10 speed. I desperately want a Campy bike. My tri bike is Shimano, and I tried to get Campy on it. Couldn’t, though. I will probably replace the Shimano with Campy sometime in the next two or three years. I intend to ride my tri frame for quite a while.
My road bike – that’s another story. If I upgrade my Cannondale, it will be with Campy. If I decide to buy a new bike, I will get Campy on it as well. If I could find a complete 9-speed Campy group at a good price, I would get it. I figure I could save some money over 10-speed. But it really doesn’t matter to me. I want Campy, 9 or 10.
And if I was buying a new bike and wanted Dura Ace, I would try to get 9 speed over 10 to save money. I’m not swayed by the “sexiness” of 10 speed. I, however, swayed by the sexiness of Campagnolo, 9 or 10.
RP
Why couldnt you get Campy on a Tri bike? All you need to do is dump the Ero levers and get the bar ends. I LOVE the Campy bar ends as there is an adjustment screw right in your fingers that enables you to play with the shifting. Also, I suggest turning up the spring rate in the Rear Der. to compensate for the longer cables that are needed for a typical tri bike setup. For the people that will say that the Campy brakes are not good for tri as the caliper release is on the Ero lever, not the caliper…I have never ever had an issue with that being a problem at all.
Here I go again…BWAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAA (ghasp, cough, gag…) AAAAaaaaah…um…
Cerveloguy hit it right on the head. About Time ShimaNO catches up…and to think that they would take current DA and turn it into Ultegra…that would be a first for ShimaNO (great idea though - they could copy Campy in that repect).
And here we go again with “Why 10 over 9”…we go right back to “Why 8 over 7”, “Why 7 over 6”…blah blah blah. What I think is really funny is that people with Shimano are going ga ga over this whole “Compact” crank thing to try and get less jumps with their gearing…I never had that problem with my 10 speed stuff. 11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23 (53/42).
Now back to reality, compact cranks are taking over in Europe on both Shimano and Campy bikes. The sales numbers are truly unbelievable.
Furthermore, it is ridiculous to think that Campy is vastly superior to Shimano. I like both, both make good product but if you look at plain independent tests, Shimano DuraAce has a lot going for it.
Record has a lot going for it as well:
That said, I think 10-speed is rather pointless from either manufacturer.
According to the velonews study the new Dura Ace crank 30% stiffer (bb, chainrings and crank assemblies) than the Campy Record. The entire assembly weighs 20 grams less and costs 33.5% less . In the stiffness/weight comparison, the DA is 34.8% stiffer than the Campy carbon crank. And in the stiffness/weight/$ comparison (value) the DA is 57% better than the Campy crank.
What would Shimano have to do to keep up with campy? Make their cranks heavier, flexier and more expensive? Dont assume that carbon is always better, I am sure the engineers at Shimano looked at every option when designing the new crank and felt aluminum offered the best performance/value.
17% stiffer than WHAT? I dont get it…I just have never seen ANYONE complain about their cranks flexing. This is back to the argument that your SOCK is absorbing some of the force that you try to apply to the pedals. Maybe we can implant steel studs directly into your metatarsal for better force transfer into the pedal system? What about the stiffness of the pedal axel? I am SURE that Speedplay would loose this war. It seems to me that the marketing has not going to the levels of “Fixing the problem we just dont have”. I am curious at what point we make another frame out of Berillium (remember that one? $25k for the frame! - it was stolen by the way). That bike was TOO stiff. Anyone who rode it would complain that it make a Cannondale feel like a Vitus and needed to put Charmin in their shorts over even the slightest rough surface.
Why is Campy better than Shimano? That is religion.
Why is Campy better than Shimano? That is religion.
And everyone in the world believes in ONE religion, don’t they. . .oh. . .wait. . .no they don’t. My guess is that Shintoism or Budhism just pass right over your head. I gotta hand it to ya Record, you are nothing if not predictable.
Still, no one can tell me who was complaining about this “flexxy crank”. I still cant find the problem with the 9 speed Dura Ace crank (let alone the Record Crank).
I think that the community is SO biased towards ShimaNO that any precieved benifit is taken to a much higher level than it would be the other way. Fact is, most people who ride are on ShimaNO and dont want to feel inferior and thus feel the need to justify their components. If ShimaNO was the fist to have 10 speeds there would have been a giant Campy blast fest untill Campy made a 10. Rather, Capy was first and ShimaNO starts with “why” and then needs to justify themselves with a “Stiffer Crank”? So I digress…who was the one complaining about their crank not being stiff enough?
That is the only UPGRADE I see. Gerard had a very valid point about the shifting being “lighter”. For those who prefer that, great. That is a thing of prefrence…claiming that someones crank is not “Stiff enough” I think is a strech.
And yes…with Campy I am QUITE predictable…what would you all do if I didnt defend my Campy? the day I stop, please - call 911 cause I have given up on life all together.
The bike I purchased came with a Shimano only package. I tried to get the company to switch out the 105 for Centaur, but they wouldn’t. Said if I wanted Campy, I needed to move up to the next level bike. They didn’t offer any flexibility in the entry level package, but did at the other price points. I didn’t mind too much, as the bike is incredible all the way around, and is 105 through and through (no Tiagra or house brand down specs). I’ve never had a problem with 105. I think it’s a fine group. But given the choice, I’d rather have Campagnolo. So I’m going to ride it like it is for a few years and then go Campy. I’m kind of toying with the idea of buying a new road bike. If I do that, I’ll get Campy. To be honest, Shimano 105 is fine with me for the level at which I ride. But like you said in another post, bikes with soul rock. I think Campy adds a some soul to any bike. And that’s what I want – a bike with soul.
RP
17% stiffer than WHAT? I dont get it…I just have never seen ANYONE complain about their cranks flexing.
That’s because you don’t sponsor a pro team. As to 17% vs. 30%, it depends on the test of course, I am referring to the Tour test. And RecordTi, if you don’t like stiffer cranks, do you like more durable cogs? I do, but I also like the shifting action on the Campy lever, so I need to get this half Campy half Shimano thing going.
Gerard.
“It’s probably just 04 Dura Ace.”
Not exactly, you won’t see all the detailed machining and the hollowed pins, bolts, etc that Dura Ace has. No ti cogs, etc. STI function, crank/BB interface are similar.
“I wouldn’t be surprised to see an upgrade to carbon cranks with 05 Dura Ace in an attempt to keep up with Campy Chorus.”
Shimano won’t go to carbon cranks. They have no plans to and feel that aluminum, particularly their 7XXX cold forged hollow cranks are far superior. It is hard to argue that. Given that the interface for the chainrings, BB, and pedals almost certainly have to be made of metal, making the rest is more congruant in their mind. Hard to find another crank/BB system as stiff and light and COST effective as D-ace <700 gram unit.
“Campy will still be a step ahead with their Record and the fact you can get 10 sp all the way down to Centaur.”
Campagnolo makes 10 speed all the way down to Veloce, allowing a “Tiagra” price point for 10 speed users. Centuar, Chorus and Record of course get improvements in weight, performance and sometimes durability.
“Personally I don’t see a lot of real world riding advantages of 10 sp over 9 sp.
The closer ratios offered with compact cranks are proably more significant.”
If you find that the compact cranks offer advantages, why not acknowledge that the 10 speed offers the SAME if not more with the ability to offer the same closely spaced gears to those of us that ride 650c wheels or can acutally use a 53x11 on a 700c bike. Many riders have selected cogsets with tight spacing in the range where they ride the most. Probably the most famous is Lance Armstrong’s use of a 20,21,22,23 tooth range of cassettes on an uphill TT a few TdF’s ago.
-SD
Timetrial.org: What are Zipp aero brakes? I know they make brake blocks but their site says nothing about calipers. I have been looking for aero brakes since I saw that thread about an unidentified set of very aero calipers on DeBooms bike at IMH. DA brakes are unnecessary stopping power on a TT bike and way too bulky.
