From memory RG is a progressive warm up, 3 min spin, 4 intervals 1 on 1 off, 3 rest and then 20 min and FTP is calculated as 95% of that 20 mins
Does anyone know in its design if the length of the wu and the 4 intervals are just that - warm up and spinning before you tackle it, or is there something specific in its design
or more simply - if I go ride a 30 min warm up and then do a 20 min test outside would they “broadly speaking” be as close as to make no difference?
You should do whatever warmup allows you to go full tilt for the 20 minute test.
There’s no such thing as, “My FTP is X if I do warmup A, but my FTP is Y if I do warmup B.” If X > Y, then warmup B isn’t ideal.
Your test procedure looks different from what I’m used to seeing:
https://kurtkinetic.com/blog/posts/how-to-test-for-ftp-and-set-training-zones/
20 minutes easy warm up3 x 1-minute wind ups with a minute rest between (100 RPM pedal cadence)5 minutes easy5 minutes all out (hard at first, but not so hard that you can’t complete the effort)10 minutes easy20-minute time trial effort (like the previous 5-minute all out effort, keep in control, hard but steady, you don’t want to over cook it and die at the end)10 to 15 minute cool down That 5 minute effort, at step 4, makes a bit of a difference in my 20’ power.
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The Rubber Glove / Trainerroad test doesn’t have that first 5 mins - though I’ve no doubt that it would make a difference
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Your test procedure looks different from what I’m used to seeing:
https://kurtkinetic.com/blog/posts/how-to-test-for-ftp-and-set-training-zones/
20 minutes easy warm up3 x 1-minute wind ups with a minute rest between (100 RPM pedal cadence)5 minutes easy5 minutes all out (hard at first, but not so hard that you can’t complete the effort)10 minutes easy20-minute time trial effort (like the previous 5-minute all out effort, keep in control, hard but steady, you don’t want to over cook it and die at the end)10 to 15 minute cool down That 5 minute effort, at step 4, makes a bit of a difference in my 20’ power.
My test looked sort of like this one. Except I had 3 tests over a week. Day 1 was 5 minute. Day 2 was 8 minute. Day 3 was 20 minute. Took those numbers and dropped them in this calculator http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/monodcriticalpower.aspx to factor in the AWC (Anaerobic Work Capacity). I think Golden Cheetah has one too.
You should do whatever warmup allows you to go full tilt for the 20 minute test.
There’s no such thing as, “My FTP is X if I do warmup A, but my FTP is Y if I do warmup B.” If X > Y, then warmup B isn’t ideal.\
This is true in theory, but in reality, it’s often the case that an athlete will perform slightly differently on the FTP test with differing warmups. It’s best to choose one and keep it consistent for your own repeat testing.
The Rubber Glove / Trainerroad test doesn’t have that first 5 mins - though I’ve no doubt that it would make a difference
The 5’ all out effort definitely does make a difference. Without that, I think your FTP would be closer to 90-92% of your 20’ power. Even with the 5’ all out effort a lot of people can’t hold 95% of their 20’ power for a 40K TT.
Your test procedure looks different from what I’m used to seeing:
https://kurtkinetic.com/blog/posts/how-to-test-for-ftp-and-set-training-zones/
20 minutes easy warm up3 x 1-minute wind ups with a minute rest between (100 RPM pedal cadence)5 minutes easy5 minutes all out (hard at first, but not so hard that you can’t complete the effort)10 minutes easy20-minute time trial effort (like the previous 5-minute all out effort, keep in control, hard but steady, you don’t want to over cook it and die at the end)10 to 15 minute cool down That 5 minute effort, at step 4, makes a bit of a difference in my 20’ power.
My test looked sort of like this one. Except I had 3 tests over a week. Day 1 was 5 minute. Day 2 was 8 minute. Day 3 was 20 minute. Took those numbers and dropped them in this calculator http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/monodcriticalpower.aspx to factor in the AWC (Anaerobic Work Capacity). I think Golden Cheetah has one too.
Rubber Glove is excellent for the trainer. When I switch outside, my FTP test is more in line with what you have listed here.
Both tests push me to point of almost stabbing kittens. I do randomly curse a lot. And I think I saw Elvis rapping with 2-Pac on my last test.
The Rubber Glove / Trainerroad test doesn’t have that first 5 mins - though I’ve no doubt that it would make a difference
The 5’ all out effort definitely does make a difference. Without that, I think your FTP would be closer to 90-92% of your 20’ power. Even with the 5’ all out effort a lot of people can’t hold 95% of their 20’ power for a 40K TT.
+1
Do you find your FTP is higher outdoors than indoors?
5 minutes all out (hard at first, but not so hard that you can’t complete the effort)
If this is a real requirement, they need to state 5 minutes at XXX% FTP. A true 5 minutes all out would NOT be a good warmup for an FTP test coming a few minutes later.
Just pick a procedure and do it the same way every time.
A true 5 minutes all out would NOT be a good warmup for an FTP test coming a few minutes later.
+1.
Do you find your FTP is higher outdoors than indoors?
definitely lower
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I never prescribe the 5min FG effort before a 20min test. As you say, I have never found an athlete can hold 5% off of their 20min test for a 40k or 60min TT. We have found that roughly 6 - 7% is generally much more fepresenrative. Maybe 6% for a true slow twitch Ironman athlete. We actually have had a few very much anaerobic athletes show upwards of 8-9% difference in their 20min to FTP. But they were domestic UCI level sprinters, so very much an outlier.
So I completed a 20 min effort outside.
I used a PT rather than the P2M that I have on my trainer bike.
I found a completed deserted 9.2km stretch of road with a roundabout at each. Warmed up - one way, then started it on the return leg and did my 20 mins.
Result: exactly ± 1 watt, what I produce indoors 2-3 weeks ago.
So this could mean several things; Ive not improved at all, I test higher indoors than out and I’ve actually improved and the result before would have been lower had I done it outside, the opposite could also be true, that the PT reads lower / higher than the P2M
Essentially a useless test for monitoring progress - very useful given it was done outside and on the bike I’m using in a race
I think its clear to me that the 2*8, the @95% of 20 are probably not representative of an hours power - I think the only way to do that would be to do an hour, but thats completely impractical when its 36 degrees at 6am.
My best guess estimate is that its more like 92-93% of that 20 minutes, so I just need to bear that in mind and be conservative in my planning.
I don’t think there is any perfect way to do an FTP estimation based on a less than 1hr effort. But that is OK, because for every race except a 1-hr TT, you need to make an estimate of what % of FTP to target for the race, and that is different for everyone, so as long as you are consistent in your FTP testing, and you figure out what % of that is right for a specific kind of race, you’re good to go.
My coach has me do a 30 min effort for a TT test and take 95% of that. The warmup is just easy spinning and a few short hard efforts to get the blood flowing but nothing that would fatigue me for the test.
I never prescribe the 5min FG effort before a 20min test. As you say, I have never found an athlete can hold 5% off of their 20min test for a 40k or 60min TT. We have found that roughly 6 - 7% is generally much more fepresenrative. Maybe 6% for a true slow twitch Ironman athlete. We actually have had a few very much anaerobic athletes show upwards of 8-9% difference in their 20min to FTP. But they were domestic UCI level sprinters, so very much an outlier.
Your experience is different from mine:
Andy, I’m not trying to say it’s not right, I just haven’t done the analysis you have at 5%, and generally find a 20min test and say their 40k State TT pacing to be higher than 6-7% different.
I wonder if being located at 1650m here in Boulder has anything to do with it? Have you done a lot of research with people located further up in altitude? With FTP’s decreasing or increasing ~1-2% dependent on the person per 305m, I wonder if that has some repercussion, especially with non-elite athletes?
I wonder if being located at 1650m here in Boulder has anything to do with it?
That would certainly be expected to have an effect (and if I’d thought for a moment about where you’re located I would have mentioned it).
Sorry to resurrect this thread but as I’m retesting on Thursday I thought this was applicable.
Last year I tested only with Rubber Glove because I thought it was more interesting/motivating with the video in the background. However, without the 5 minute clearing effort, could RG potentially be overestimating my FTP?
I ask only because I don’t want to set myself for overbiking a race this year. I.e. if I decide to pace a HIM at ~81% of FTP, could I actually be overbiking if I base it off my results on RG? I feel like I mildly overbiked a few HIM’s last year even after exactly hitting my power targets, and just realized this might be one of the reasons.
I could potentially start testing this season with either TR’s 20 min test or RG (and stick with it all season). Which one is best for pacing purposes later on?
Thanks