Very sad.
Not good. Condolences to family and RIP to athletes.
What can cause this to happen in people who have never had it before? Just over anxiety?
What can cause this to happen in people who have never had it before? Just over anxiety?
Off to church now, but f/ Scientific American (question is different but addresses yours) http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=triathlon-death-swimming
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Nearly all of the deaths you studied occurred during the swimming events. Did this surprise you, given that swimming is the first leg of the triathlon and, presumably, the athletes are not suffering from the heat or from exhaustion at this point in the competition?
Yes, exactly. We were first surprised by this but I note this trend continues beyond the end of our study (also in several non-sanctioned races we did not formally look at). While at first I was surprised, it does make sense for a number of reasons: first, the adrenaline surge and pure number of athletes entering the water at the same time; second the fact that I suspect many athletes come from a background in running or other sports and may be less adept at swimming; third, swimming in a triathlon is totally different sport than doing some laps in the pool due to variability of extremes of waves people swimming around you and on top of you; fourth, the inability to rest properly if needed (or call for help) as you could do in the marathon and bike ; and, fifth, the difficulties in being noticed if the swimmer is in trouble due to the number of athletes in a body of water, which is not transparent. I think these are some of the factors that are related.
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The article says that they died of “cardiac respiratory arrest.” The question here is, what caused it? I mean, “cardiac respiratory arrest” happens in 100% of people who die, so that diagnosis really isn’t very helpful.
The article says that they died of “cardiac respiratory arrest.” The question here is, what caused it? I mean, “cardiac respiratory arrest” happens in 100% of people who die, so that diagnosis really isn’t very helpful.
Agree. Why not report the truth that other than drowning, the cause of death is unknown? However, this slippery term “cardiac respiratory arrest” does cover both schools of thought on probable cause.
The article says that they died of “cardiac respiratory arrest.” The question here is, what caused it? I mean, “cardiac respiratory arrest” happens in 100% of people who die, so that diagnosis really isn’t very helpful.
it happens in 100% people who die doesn’t mean it causes the death. you can get shot in the head and when you die your heart stops it doesn’t mean cardiac arrest was the cause of death, it was the result of a death caused by a gunshot wound.
it’s actually pretty easy to rule out drowning in an autopsy, there is supposed to be some sort of white foam in the esophagus that your body produces when you drown.
The article says that they died of “cardiac respiratory arrest.” The question here is, what caused it? I mean, “cardiac respiratory arrest” happens in 100% of people who die, so that diagnosis really isn’t very helpful.
Sorry for not being clear - I was in a hurry out the door. I was trying to suggest that if arrest happens during races w/o any issues during training, perhaps it is because of the extra adrenaline due to it being a race and in conditions different from training environment (open water vs pool, flailing swimmers around you, etc). I readily admit that I am no expert in such matters.
ETA: I am NOT saying anything negative about training environments etc. Just that there might be an extra adrenaline surge at a race that might cause issues.
The leading indicator of all deaths is birth.
The leading indicator of all deaths is birth.
Yet I’d prefer to die crossing the finish line, after my kids are grown and independent.
I think it is especially sad when people die participating in an activity that should contribute to their overall physical well being. One thing I always wonder when this topic comes up is if PEDs were a contributing factor. Are autopsy results public information? I think USAT tracks and gathers info on tri deaths in the US?
It appears that these are just two more to add to the growing numbers that are now being studied and postulated about. They look like classic tri deaths too, and of course the cardiac arrest part is ridiculous. Just as in the shot in the head example, of course something trigged the cardiac event. Neither of these poor athletes were going to die if that sat on the couch that morning watching cartoons with their kids. It is a very scary phenomenon that is going on here, and some smart people are really trying to figure it out so that guidelines to help prevent/lessen the chances of it happening can be put in place. I have my ideas about many of them, of course it happened to me so i have some first hand knowledge about at least an N=1 statistic. I have also watched it very closely over the years and believe that are many commonalities in the causes, but for now i will let the experts do their work. I have been interviewed at least, so someone has my info…
I’ve always wondered about the #'s of deaths during training as well. Obviously they are much less publicized, but I hope the studies look at racing and training in its entirety. The stress and intensity of a race would most likely increase risks (especially in the swim when compared to pool swims), but I’ve always wondered if the % of deaths in training are somewhat similar to those during races. In training everyone is more likely to shut it down when feeling something that isn’t “right” and training days are shorter/easier, but I’d assume the %'s are closer than we think. We just don’t hear about it.
The article says that they died of “cardiac respiratory arrest.” The question here is, what caused it? I mean, “cardiac respiratory arrest” happens in 100% of people who die, so that diagnosis really isn’t very helpful.
it happens in 100% people who die doesn’t mean it causes the death. you can get shot in the head and when you die your heart stops it doesn’t mean cardiac arrest was the cause of death, it was the result of a death caused by a gunshot wound.
it’s actually pretty easy to rule out drowning in an autopsy, there is supposed to be some sort of white foam in the esophagus that your body produces when you drown.
You’re generalizing a bit too much as far as drowning goes. The esohpagus has everything to do with eating, and nothing to do with respiration. The trachea is where we breath from. Not all drownings produce the white foam you’re talking about. And in the medical world, there’s what’s referred to as a dry drowning and a wet drowning. A dry drowning typically happens in colder water where you have a laryngeal spasm that creates the inability to breath. A wet drowning is when you actually inhale liquid causing a block of the oxygen/cardon dioxide exchange.
Typically in a drowning where a body remains submerged, you will have water inside the airway after death anyway once the muscles relax. There are physiological signs that get looked for at autopsy to determine the when and how of death.
But it’s not quite as straight forward as it may seem to rule in or out a dry or wet drowning. And yes, we all die of cardiac arrest. It’s part of the death process. The underlying cause is what should be considered the cause of death though. There’s a difference there that the media seems to never get accurate in their reporting.
Shane
of course it happened to me so i have some first hand knowledge about at least an N=1 statistic
You personally were in distress? Or you witnessed others dying? Could you elaborate or point to that post? I did a quick search, but you are rather a prolific writer.
Just that if “it” can happen to a pro …
Do you think more lifesavers in boats on the course will reduce some of these tri swim deaths? Even after the athlete is in trouble how many can likely be rescued and how much time do the rescuers have?
Thanks if you have any ideas/answers.
G.
More rescuers may be helpful, but it comes at a price. The venues local resources may not be able/willing to provide more personnel. These are people who should be trained, not just someone with a kayak, etc. The other thing is that they need to identify that there’s someone in distress. With the number of swimmers in the water in a mass start where everyone is swimming it can be hard to determine someone swimming versus someone struggling. Once it’s identified there’s a problem, they have to weave through everyone that doesn’t know there’s a problem to get to the victim to make a rescue.
Instead of mass starts, wave starts may be helpful in that you don’t end up with 2000 athletes moving as a large group. The smaller groups allow for more separation and easier spotting for those looking for people in distress.
Having more eyes on the athletes would be beneficial. After that, it’s all about a quick response to the victim. I don’t know as though more rescuers alone is the solution to that.
As far as time to make a rescue, it’s variable. It depends on the emergency. Just because they’re in the water doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a water related emergency. If it’s a heart condition, they may be limited to minutes. If it’s exhaustion, you have until they go under and can no longer keep themselves afloat. There’s too many variables to put a time limit on a rescue.
It’s a continued problem. And I’m not sure there’s a solid solution to it.
The article says that they died of “cardiac respiratory arrest.” The question here is, what caused it? I mean, “cardiac respiratory arrest” happens in 100% of people who die, so that diagnosis really isn’t very helpful.
it happens in 100% people who die doesn’t mean it causes the death. you can get shot in the head and when you die your heart stops it doesn’t mean cardiac arrest was the cause of death, it was the result of a death caused by a gunshot wound.
it’s actually pretty easy to rule out drowning in an autopsy, there is supposed to be some sort of white foam in the esophagus that your body produces when you drown.
Agreed. Google Bud Dwyer and watch the video when he blows his head off on camera.
His heart is still pumping away for a good 5 - 10 seconds as half his head is gone. Heart eventually stopped, but he was dead well before it did
No thanks. I’ll take your word for it.
You personally were in distress? Or you witnessed others dying? Could you elaborate or point to that post?//
Both actually. I was a lifeguard for 30 years, so i was very close to a lot of people dying in the water. On the personal side, i had a heart event in a race in the water that left me with a pacemaker. I was lucky in that it happened towards the end of the swim and i was able to self rescue myself before any complete shutdown would have left me underwater to meet my maker…