Yeah, I don't have numbers at hand, but I've heard from credible people that testing indicates that dedicated track race tubbies beat road tubbies. This seems plausible having used them in person. Track race tubbies are insanely thin.



Wood is faster. :) And Carson is smooth enough you can crank your tire pressure up to crazy #s, 160 PSI+. Which the same credible sources tell me is the thing to do. 1-2 KPH or so faster for an IP, very roughly. Though Carson is on the slow end for a smooth wood track for whatever reason. Not a track where records are broken, typically.

Buddy of mine is on the USA Cycling national team and exclusively rides the Vittoria Pista Speed and Control depending if he is on an indoor or outdoor track.

I use Vittoria Pista on my race wheels and Corsa Speed on my every day wheels.

Wood is going to be smoother than concrete and probably a little faster. LA is higher banks and longer straights than a normal 250 (as I'm told) so have him ready for 45 degree banked turns.

The difference between high end tubular tires is usually small enough that it's overshadowed by a good or bad glue job. Vittoria Mastik was usually the best, and a lot of it. For indoor IP I'd see if you can borrow a front disc from someone. That'll be a bigger difference than any tire choice.

For Carson and IP I would consider three tires: Pista Speed, ORO or Dugast silk. The Dugast will be delicate relative to the other two. All three are very fast.

Front disc is a must for IP. I run 19-20 F and 23 R.

Tire pressures at Carson should be 200+. Mastik is definitely the glue you want to use.

Second question: 333 v 250 (Carson specific) - turns are tight and straights are long at Carson, so learning the line is critical. Most people turn in too early and then push high mid turn. What 333 is your home track? Time on the track is the only answer to learning the nuance of Carson.

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Baton Rouge & Alkek, both near identical, decent concrete.
For now, just using Corsa Speed clinchers.

1/2 hour on Carson race morning might be all the time we can hope for.

-bobo

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"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."

Come up to Lexus in Detroit, we'll teach your kid how to ride steep banks and they'll have fun riding with our juniors :)

I'd try to borrow some tubbies if possible, if just for the pressure. Assuming equal-or-better aero wheels.

And if it's only 1/2 hour, I'd recommend he spend time in advance watching YouTube videos of elite pursuiters on 250 tracks, particularly Carson, and how they enter turns. QKRTNU is right that if you hug the black line like you can on a 333, the forces you experience in the turn can get more fatiguing than if you just smooth it out slightly. It's possible to hug the black, but if you're going really fast you have to physically brace your body for the forces, and it just wears on you. And definitely do a few hot laps in the aero position in that 1/2 hour.

Edit: And I don't want to be pedantic, but if using road or concrete-velo tires, be sure to wipe then down well before taking the track at Carson. Normal dust can make them slick, and lateral grip is very important, particularly out of the electronic gate. Ask me how I know.

Thanks, all.

Good info.

-bobo

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"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."

Alkek is my home track, happy to help anytime you want to come out to train. Weekends more so as weeknights are very challenging for me to get out to the track.

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___________________________________________________
To go faster than ever before, visit: https://squareup.com/...mic-high-performance

REALLY good point @trail re: cleaning the tires. White vinegar and a clean cloth is the best.

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___________________________________________________
To go faster than ever before, visit: https://squareup.com/...mic-high-performance

Cool. We're in La, about 2hrs from BR velodrome, 4hrs from Alkek. She'll be doing the April & May Atomic TTs.

-bobo

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"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."

Great, I will be there for the TT's, be sure to say hello...my name is Andy Weathers.

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___________________________________________________
To go faster than ever before, visit: https://squareup.com/...mic-high-performance

I’ve ridden a handful of tires from tubular Vittoria Pista Speeds, Dugast silk latex to clincher GP 4000s2 there without issue. For race day pick the fastest tire for your setup and don’t think twice. For training, just pick a tire that you like and stay above the min. recommended speeds in the turns.

If you want any Oro’s let me know. I have 2x 19mm and 2x23mm

Ganna went clinchers in his hour record because they were faster.

Sadly not clinchers mortals have access to.

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If i could ride Clinchers at the track, I wouldn't

Good point, well made!

Because you know something that Ganna and his team didn't?

In fairness, as I understand it, that was Ganna's response too, until he saw how much further he was going to go with clinchers.

GP5000TT Tdf. Readily Available.
The women’s Team Pursuit WR was set using Conti Supersonics which seem to be harder to get hold of these days.
I also noticed Neah Evans has been using a Princeton Trispoke with a GP5000TT Tdf at UK track nationals for the points race.

That's interesting, didn't know that! I assume it was because the superior aerodynamics outweighed the rolling resistance gains. I have to assume the well-known Conti aero-mojo was very much in play. Because while efficient, I just can't imagine even the fast-rolling 5000TT beating a condom-thin track tubby in pure rolling resistance. But those condom-thin tubbies are also very "round."

Also wonder what pressure they used. "Less than 15 bar" is all I've seen.

That said, for a 250m wood track, I'd only use this setup for pursuit (or hour) efforts. Not mass start.

*inserts picture from Princeton Carbon Works IG page of the 7850 TS in a clincher or tubeless configuration being raced at the British national champs but alas it’s still 2010 and I can’t upload from my iPhone.*

https://www.instagram.com/...?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

I wonder if they are the consumer tdf's though... the one's we can buy are rated for 109psi and I just can't imagine Ganna's was that low. I suppose on the right (Princeton specially made for the event) wheels you may be able to go over.

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I'm imagining all the friends you'd make if you had a tubeless flat on the track and blew sealant all over the place haha :D

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