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Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training?
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I've noticed that pretty much zero coaches seem to take triathlon sighting practice seriously. Even the best of them get as close as either "do some OWS in the weeks before race day" or 'include some sighting in your swims before race day."

But just on reflection, think about how fast you go in the pool for average pace:

6 x 100yds, 20sec rest, no sighting, hard effort

vs

6 x 100 yds, 20 sec rest, sighting on every 3rd stroke cycle, same hard effort

vs

6 x 100 yds, 20sec rest, BLIND swimming (eyes closed) except for sighting on every 3rd stroke cycle, same hard effort.

I haven't done this exact test, but just from doing like 3 x 100s, I was absolutely slower on sighting (like 2-3sec/100) and significantly slower on blind swimming (I didn't time it because it was so much depressingly slower, but I plan to next time!)

In addition, there are so many technical aspects of sighting that can be improved, I've found. Things like: Low head sighting (most efficient but doesn't work with choppy conditions), fast sighting (efficient but harder to get a visual lock on target), high head sighting (popping the head higher out of water costs energy and time, but is sometimes required in chop and heavy traffic), frequent sighting (if there's a current, you have to sight a lot), sighting with off-side breathing, it goes on and on - and all of these things could arguably have just as much impact on a intermediate+ swimmer's swim speed than compared to focusing on minute pure stroke technical gains.


Is this a neglected area in the repertoire of AG swimmers? And for all you swim coaches or strong swimmers out there, what would you recommend best to approach this?
Last edited by: lightheir: Nov 25, 20 12:54
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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We all know that pool swimming isn't the same as open water swimming and that is why,here in Oz, pool Olympians regularly get beaten by Surf Lifesavers in open water events.It is a skill and triathletes would benefit from doing more open water swimming, especially in rough conditions.

My advice:
1: Go to the beach and start surf swimming until it becomes second nature..
2:If you don't live near the beach then sell your house and move to the coast.
3:If you live somewhere too cold to swim in open water all year then sell your house and move somewhere warm.

Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Nov 25, 20 13:13
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:
We all know that pool swimming isn't the same as open water swimming and that is why,here in Oz, pool Olympians regularly get beaten by Surf Lifesavers in open water events.It is a skill and triathletes would benefit from doing more open water swimming, especially in rough conditions.

My advice:
1: Go to the beach and start surf swimming until it becomes second nature..
2:If you don't live near the beach then sell your house and move to the coast.
3:If you live somewhere too cold to swim in open water all year then sell your house and move somewhere warm.

Short of moving to OZ or other high-surf areas though, I'm not sure just doing more 'OWS' will be enough to really improve a typical AGers sighting.

To me, that's like telling AGers to just go swim an hour or so, unstructured in the pool 2-3x/week and call it a day. It'll take care of itself. Sure, you'll get a lot better at swimming compared to not swimming at all, but you're leaving TONS on the table compared to someone who mixed in the intensity and variety with hard intervals and structure workout progression.

Just from having experimented myself, I do think it's eminently possible to pool train sighting effectively (like even better than had you just go and done those long OWS sessions), just that I've read literally nothing and no recommendations about how to do it.
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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There's a beach on Lake Erie that I learned to swim in rough water. I would seek out windy days and head out there. The water is about 4 feet deep up to a point then it drops off to about 10 feet. At that point on a good day I could get 1.5 to 2 foot waves breaking in and practiced swimming into, across and with them.

For sighting I'd swim once a week across a .4 mile inland lake to practice. Honestly, after I figured it out I didn't need any more practice but I know people that still struggle with it.
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
ThailandUltras wrote:
We all know that pool swimming isn't the same as open water swimming and that is why,here in Oz, pool Olympians regularly get beaten by Surf Lifesavers in open water events.It is a skill and triathletes would benefit from doing more open water swimming, especially in rough conditions.

My advice:
1: Go to the beach and start surf swimming until it becomes second nature..
2:If you don't live near the beach then sell your house and move to the coast.
3:If you live somewhere too cold to swim in open water all year then sell your house and move somewhere warm.


Short of moving to OZ or other high-surf areas though, I'm not sure just doing more 'OWS' will be enough to really improve a typical AGers sighting.

To me, that's like telling AGers to just go swim an hour or so, unstructured in the pool 2-3x/week and call it a day. It'll take care of itself. Sure, you'll get a lot better at swimming compared to not swimming at all, but you're leaving TONS on the table compared to someone who mixed in the intensity and variety with hard intervals and structure workout progression.

Just from having experimented myself, I do think it's eminently possible to pool train sighting effectively (like even better than had you just go and done those long OWS sessions), just that I've read literally nothing and no recommendations about how to do it.
.

All I can say to your response is that you don't have a sense of humour and you lack imagination.

Where did I suggest that open water swim workout would be unstructured?I know many triathlon coaches who get their squads into lakes or to beaches and set up buoys for them to do specific open water sessions.If they are at the beach and the surf is running then multiple sets of "Ins and Outs" would be the workout of the day with sometimes a run added between the exit and entry points.Rough lake days are used to get used to the feeling of being tossed around and help athletes learn how to navigate in choppy conditions. Two of Pentictons top triathlon coaches move their squads to the lake for the summer and set up buoys for speedwork,sighting and group swim practice.Both of those squads have produced amazing results including pro triathletes and age group champions. Jurgen Zack uses open water sessions all the time for his super successful squad in Phuket and again that squad has pro athletes and age group champions as part of the group.My friend who coaches the Thai National Team does the same in our little village.I could add more.Open water squad or solo training is common and very useful.

You are only limited by your own imagination..Here are my two home made, soccer ball buoys at the beach in the village in Thailand where I usually spend half my year.Plenty of opporunity to get hard sessions working on all aspects of the discipline.Assuming the negative as you did is exactly what holds so many people back from thinking outside of their box,getting out of their comfort zone and improving,

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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I've noticed that pretty much zero coaches seem to take triathlon sighting practice seriously. Even the best of them get as close as either "do some OWS in the weeks before race day" or 'include some sighting in your swims before race day." ?

We do a fair bit of sighting drills in our squad. Tends to be 25m sighting/croc eyes/waterpolo and then 25/75 of swim * 4 or 8 perhaps fortnightly in one of our pool sessions. Also deep water start drills, especially early in the season.

We also obviously do sighting in our weekly OW sessions, both as normal part of swimming loops around the harbour, and specific sighting into the sun routes.

Note that I am still a liability and totally inept at swimming anything approximating the marked swim courses.
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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Duncan74 wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I've noticed that pretty much zero coaches seem to take triathlon sighting practice seriously. Even the best of them get as close as either "do some OWS in the weeks before race day" or 'include some sighting in your swims before race day." ?


We do a fair bit of sighting drills in our squad. Tends to be 25m sighting/croc eyes/waterpolo and then 25/75 of swim * 4 or 8 perhaps fortnightly in one of our pool sessions. Also deep water start drills, especially early in the season.

Came to recommend the same. I add Tarzan drill to my workouts leading into a race. Works as sighting practice and strengthening for swimming with your head up/legs dropping as with sighting. Another thing I have done is to do intervals flipping before the wall - good practice for in water starts and/or getting back up to speed after going around a buoy.
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I think sighting is definitely under appreciated and under practiced. I swim at Lucky's Lake and I can make it across and back faster than high school kids that would absolutely destroy me in a pool simply because I know how to sight and do so regularly (plus turns/underwaters becoming non-factors).
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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I have found that though I am now experienced in ows with years of tri, it still takes specific practice to sight at race speed and intensity. Especially if I have gotten faster in the pool. In fact, it's almost a limiter in that if your sighting skills are weak,.all those poll gains won't happen to the extent they should on race day.

Sighting at speed is significantly harder for me than cruise ows which is no problem for me even in surf.
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Most people suck at sighting and just follow the masses. I am a shit swimmer...but I swim top 25% because I know what is important.

Sighting is gosh darn important.
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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In our tri club pool sesh we regularly put in sets if sighting every 3, 6 or 9 (mixing it up so you can change as needed and also not be freaked out when you miss a couple when it's choppy.)

We also take the lane markers out and do some deep water starts...sometimes put the fastest at the back - they have to get past people, slownfolks get used to speed merchants muscling past.
We'll sometimes put a couple of bouys in to aim for /swim around and do circuits too - good to practice sighting and turns and again just getting more used to the close quarters combat whilst is a benign warm clear pool.
All helps with OW skills in general which help being quicker AND more relaxed in a race.

We often do some drafting skills too / sets where we rotate who's at the front and who's drafting..straight lines, arrowheads, diamonds etc.

But maybe that's because our main coach is a tri coach and fully buys into SwimSmooth methods - so sees the benefits of doing these things and isn't a traditional swim-club-in-a-pool-only coach. (He USA swim coach in its own right. But not just stuck to that).
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Wanna get better at sighting? Learn to swim butterfly. And learn to swim straight without sighting.

Seriously.

Fly teaches you how to pick up your head in rhythm. Swimming straighter means you spend less time looking for the marker.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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There is a lot of sighting practice in one of the phases of Tower 26's swim program. I can't remember how long it is, but let's say 12-16 weeks leading up into the early race season and through the heart of race season. It's pretty variable, with prescribed sighting for just a few sets (e.g. 1-2 times per 25, each 25 for however many 200s we have), up to including sighting in almost every set for a given workout. By the end of that phase, I recall that my pace per hundred didn't really suffer at all when including sighting. However, it definitely did in the beginning though, but as like anything else, it's a skill - but a skill that can be practiced.
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve signed up for swim smooth plans about 3 months ago and there is definitely a fair bit of sighting in the plans, both in the pool and open water if you follow it.
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Practicing sighting in a pool with lane lines that you can see is a waste of time.
Learning the basic technique of sighting takes less than 5min.


Quote:
focusing on minute pure stroke technical gains

I focus on getting fit and strong in the pool. Technical gains come out of that.

There's no substitute for getting into a lake or the ocean and practicing.
Wind, waves, current, sun height and direction are all things you should get experience at if you want to race well in open water.
I'm lucky to have spent a summer in Australia and spend a week in Hawai'i each year to keep sharp.


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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
Practicing sighting in a pool with lane lines that you can see is a waste of time.
Learning the basic technique of sighting takes less than 5min.


Quote:
focusing on minute pure stroke technical gains

I focus on getting fit and strong in the pool. Technical gains come out of that.

There's no substitute for getting into a lake or the ocean and practicing.
Wind, waves, current, sun height and direction are all things you should get experience at if you want to race well in open water.
I'm lucky to have spent a summer in Australia and spend a week in Hawai'i each year to keep sharp.


I DEF disagree with this. Especially if you have limited to no OWS access.

I've found quite a few very effective sighting practice drills on the lines I mentioned above. All of them translate outstandingly to OWS.

The basics takes 5 seconds to learn if you already to know how to swim, not 5 minutes. But doing it well, so you can swim at peak speed, for the entire race distance, through traffic and chop, is much harder and has a lot to optimize compared to someone who only spent 5 minutes prior to race day learning/doing it.
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Closer to race season is a good time to add sighting practice in the pool during warm up and main sets. This also helps strengthen your neck muscles which are not use to raising your head during sighting (2-3x per 25 or every 6-8 strokes). A full ironman 2.4mi swim (~4225 yds) would be over 500 sightings. (if you do 1 per ~6-8 strokes)
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Put something on the wall to read between strokes on your Vasa ;-)

It is funny, I used to find sighting and, in particular, the timing of sighting with my strokes/pulls pretty difficult. But these days I literally never get to swim other than in the few months leading up to a race, and yet I find sighting comes back to me in a flash when I go open water. I do throw some sighting in on my pool swims, but not in a structured way. I always felt like when you get the hang of it, you've got it, like riding a bike. But that won't be the case for everyone I'm sure.

I always notice when I watch ITU races how some of the guys are sighting almost every stroke, especially AB and JB. Varga off the front, not so much. But when you watch those guys doing it, it almost looks like it is part of their natural stroke.

Add to the list: making sure you are happy breathing both sides. I'm not talking bilateral, but just being able to choose depending on the race situation you find yourself in, whether because of conditions (eg chop, swell coming in from one side) or tactically (where you are on the course, where other athletes are).

Cheers, Rich.
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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“Sighting” has very little to do with holding a straight line in open water.

Hope this helps,

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I usually get on a pair of feet

I sight for approx 100 yards. If they are going good I may sight 4 or 5 more times the rest of a HIM distance

Seems to have worked well for literally decades. Never understood all this sighting. Then again have never led the swim so maybe that is why
Last edited by: MrTri123: Dec 1, 20 3:09
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
I usually get on a pair of feet

I sight for approx 100 yards. If they are going good I may sight 4 or 5 more times the rest of a HIM distance

Seems to have worked well for literally decades. Never understood all this sighting. Then again have never led the swim so maybe that is why

How do you stay on a pair of feet in OWS without sighting them?
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Re: Sighting practice - A neglected but critical part of tri swim training? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
MrTri123 wrote:
I usually get on a pair of feet

I sight for approx 100 yards. If they are going good I may sight 4 or 5 more times the rest of a HIM distance

Seems to have worked well for literally decades. Never understood all this sighting. Then again have never led the swim so maybe that is why


How do you stay on a pair of feet in OWS without sighting them?
.
I can see all the way to the end of my 25meter pool without lifting my head out of the water so it isn't that hard to see what is going on immediately around you in a race (unless of course the water is totally black or murky) Once you are on a pair of feet you can feel it.Depending on the layout of the swim you may not have to raise your head much at all.If there is a landmark high in the distance behind where you want to go you can sight off that.The position of the sun can have you swimming in a straight line without the need to look up. I am surprised that people aren't taught all these things.

In the last race I did before COVID (Laguna Phuket) The finish leg of the open ended box swim was directly into the sun.I had checked it out the day before and knew the sun would be over the finish arch of the first swim so during the race all I needed to do was to swim toward the big bloody light in the distance.I didn't need to look up at all.After the race people were complaining that they couldn't see the finish because the sun was in their eyes.It never occurred to them that the sun was the target.
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