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Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh?
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So had this in my inbox today:

https://www.maurten.com/products/bicarb

Here in Spain it’s €74 a box - For FOUR servings!?

What’s this all about then? Never seen bicarbonates being mentioned before.

Regards, Richard
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [thetrickster] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know about this product in particular, but people used to ingest sodium bicarbonate before short events as a lactate buffer. I thought most people switched to sodium phosphate for longer duration events.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [thetrickster] [ In reply to ]
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Bicarbonate is converted essentially instantly to CO2 by carbonic anhydrase. Now we can debate whether it’s the Na concentration instead, but this strikes me as marketing mumbo jumbo. Now if we had oral THAM…
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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mathematics wrote:
I don't know about this product in particular, but people used to ingest sodium bicarbonate before short events as a lactate buffer. I thought most people switched to sodium phosphate for longer duration events.

I thought I heard somewhere around here that when it comes to ingesting it the difference between athletic performance and explosive diarrhea was an extremely thin line and could only be discovered through trial and error so people stopped.

I have used the lotion bicarbonate product from amp performance or whoever but never near the amounts they suggest and it seems to work on hard interval workouts. Not sure if its a placebo but I spent $50 as a test and still have some. Not sure if I'll buy it again but that's more as I don't know how many more tempo workouts I have planned in my life.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [thetrickster] [ In reply to ]
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thetrickster wrote:
So had this in my inbox today:

https://www.maurten.com/products/bicarb

Here in Spain it’s €74 a box - For FOUR servings!?

What’s this all about then? Never seen bicarbonates being mentioned before.

‘Bicarb’ is one of the best known and most studied ergogenic aids. You can buy it extremely cheaply on Amazon. I have tried it and did not experience noticeable improvements, nor stomach discomfort. Here’s an article that discusses some research showing bicarbonate may improve adaptations to intense exercise in training, which I thought was interesting …

https://www.endureiq.com/...aptation-to-training

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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But hey - the system comes with a mixing bowl! With a screw top lid!
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [eblackadder] [ In reply to ]
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eblackadder wrote:
Bicarbonate is converted essentially instantly to CO2 by carbonic anhydrase. Now we can debate whether it’s the Na concentration instead, but this strikes me as marketing mumbo jumbo. Now if we had oral THAM…

The arrows in the equation point in both directions

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [thetrickster] [ In reply to ]
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Bicarb has been tested in labs on athletes and has been shown to make zero difference in blood lactate levels. Don't waste your money. Its an old idea. I think Cytomax was one of the first sports drinks to advertise its supposed benefits in the late 80's?
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [thetrickster] [ In reply to ]
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Used by Killian Jornet when he won the last UTMB. Apparently used by a number of cross country skiers dominating world cups and some runners breaking world records. Bicarb has been used for years at elite sport but always had the problem of making many users have stomach problems. Tons of studies have backed up the performance gains of bicarb. Maurten have solved that with the hydrogel to make it easier to digest. Meant to help with performance up to 1%. So waste of money for everyone apart from those trying to peak at the upper ends of sport. Close to a 3 hour marathon? Maybe use it twice in practice and on race day. Maybe save you up to a couple of minutes. But is it worth that cost? Pro sports where money/titles etc is on the line and it makes sense.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [RizzaNZ] [ In reply to ]
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RizzaNZ wrote:
Meant to help with performance up to 1%. So waste of money for everyone apart from those trying to peak at the upper ends of sport. Close to a 3 hour marathon? Maybe use it twice in practice and on race day. Maybe save you up to a couple of minutes. But is it worth that cost? Pro sports where money/titles etc is on the line and it makes sense.


There's a great survey paper on the decades of sodium biocarbonate research here.

They conclude the performance benefits are well demonstrated for events ranging from 30 seconds to 12 minutes. Much more sketchy results for longer duration. Because of this I simply don't bother.

As for benefit to elite athletes vs. untrained, there is nothing definitive. So it may very well work for untrained or recreational athletes, not just elite athletes.

For cost, I'd sure make sure I *couldn't* tolerate the pure stuff available for dirt cheap on Amazon before resorting to crazy "jello shot" delivery methods. The study does say that severity of side effects isn't that bad for most. I think some sellers of alternative delivery mechanisms tend to exaggerate the effects. From the study, "The incidence and severity of side-effects vary between and within individuals, but it is generally low."
Last edited by: trail: Feb 28, 23 19:50
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [thetrickster] [ In reply to ]
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I actually stumbled upon this article last night on the topic: https://www.outsideonline.com/...a-performance-boost/

Sounds like many are having success with the product.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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xtrpickels wrote:
eblackadder wrote:
Bicarbonate is converted essentially instantly to CO2 by carbonic anhydrase. Now we can debate whether it’s the Na concentration instead, but this strikes me as marketing mumbo jumbo. Now if we had oral THAM…

The arrows in the equation point in both directions
Yes, they do. But presumably the intended effect is to bind protons turn it into CO2, not take CO2 and convert it to bicarb, since you’re increasing the concentration gradient and forcing the reaction to run one way. Generally the buffering effect is pretty transitory is what I’m getting at. PaCO2 rises instantly after IV bicarb administration, it’s just going to stimulate your respiratory drive until you blow it off.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [thetrickster] [ In reply to ]
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If there is one thing Maurten has dialed in, it's their branding and marketing.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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xtrpickels wrote:
eblackadder wrote:
Bicarbonate is converted essentially instantly to CO2 by carbonic anhydrase. Now we can debate whether it’s the Na concentration instead, but this strikes me as marketing mumbo jumbo. Now if we had oral THAM…


The arrows in the equation point in both directions
more than that the bicarbonate liberates CO2 as soon as it hit acid in the stomach. If you want to try it baking powder is citric acid a far less strong acid than is in the stomach, and when mixed with water it liberates carbon dioxide... I have no idea how bicarbonate enter the blood after the stomach... Could it be that the high concentration of carbon dioxide diffuses into the blood from the stomach or duodenum?
I was just reading this yesterday.. still trying to figure out how bicarbonate makes it to the blood stream.
https://journals.humankinetics.com/.../article-p74.xml#r19

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34875625/#:~:text=the%20hyperhydration%20potential%20of%20sodium%20bicarbonate%20and%20sodium%20citrate
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [thetrickster] [ In reply to ]
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so, FTR, this is old/old news.
I've done the research and actually done the experiment a while back as well, since I was curious. The rec was 0.3 mg/kg and I weigh about ~70kg, so I went with about 2 grams of bicarb in about 4 big glasses of G2. It's a lot-

I planned it on Saturday, a day when I usually do a few short bike sprint races and then an hour race, so it was my usual Saturday race day.


On the plus side, I can say that for me, it improved my ability to do repeat sprints but that was about it. I did not test breath holding or crazy stuff like that. It did not change my ability to hold one hour power. It did not change my max sprint power and I tried several times during the races to go all out. I raced two or three sprint bike races on the day @ 1 hr and ~3 hrs and did another the next day.

I had the perception that I was still fatigued as I was doing these short sprint races as usual, but surprisingly, I was still able to hold almost the same pace and power for each of the several consecutive races. If I remember correctly, my best race was a super sprint bike race the next day. That was unusual for me. In the past, my performance had a definite steady decline with each subsequent race.

On the down side, it makes you very bloated. It was hard to drink so much of it and I mixed it with G2 and could likely have gone a bit more concentrated. Definitely moves the bowels! I retained water and my weight went up and stayed there for several days.

All in all-not worth it as a performance benefit unless chasing a very short race effort and one might load in the evening on Day 1 and race in the morning on Day 2.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [dtoce] [ In reply to ]
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The world tour teams use it in TTs and TTTs.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
If there is one thing Maurten has dialed in, it's their branding and marketing.

Close thread


😎
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [thetrickster] [ In reply to ]
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Some misconceptions to clear up:


Absorption of Bicarbonate
  • Some, but not all Bicarbonate is sequestered by neutralizing stomach acid. Therefore athletes need a large bolus of bicarb to see it enter the blood stream.
  • This is something that Maurten is trying to get around. Remember that gastric juices are neutralized by the pancreas once they hit the small intestine. From there, intestinal mucosa either release or absorb Bicarbonate to regulate pH. In an environment with lots of Bicarbonate, the intestinal lining will absorb and transfer to the blood stream.
  • There is no debate as to whether Bicarb is ergogenic. It is.
  • There is no debate whether bicarb makes it into the blood. It Does.
  • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6346694/


Bicarbonate in the blood stream
  • Yes, the body ultimately wants to return to homeostasis and that includes bicarbonate ions. However, this takes a couple of hours to occur and as such so lasts the ergogenic effect.


Efficacy across durations
  • Without question it improved my 400m hurdling ability.
  • There can be debate about whether it is valuable in longer efforts. To that, I'd say "It depends".

  • In longer laboratory studies, it is unlikely to show any benefit. These longer efforts, especially in the lab, utilize relatively constant workloads. These efforts are limited by carbohydrate availability, core temperature increases, etc. but they are not limited by acidosis. Bicarbonate is not especially helpful in this scenario.


  • However, many endurance events (especially offroad) are composed of many shorter - higher intensity - efforts followed by recoveries based on the terrain. Additionally, many road-cycling events are won by "attacks" that are high intensity. In these instances, the ability to buffer is potentially beneficial to increasing workload. However, this becomes difficult to study due to the lack of control.


  • Many individuals will say that the weight gain (fluid retention), bloating, process of consuming, etc. are not worth it. That needs to be factored into the overall decision; does the potential to increase workload outweigh the potential detriments to performance? Frankly that is up the the individual to experiment and determine for themselves.


Role of Bicarbonate in Blood Lactate and Lactate's Role in limited performance

  • Many will consider this a negative consequence but it is not. Lactate is always the end - product of glycolysis. In fact the biggest difference between trained and untrained athletes is not their lactate production, it is their lactate removal.
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_shuttle_hypothesis
  • https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29617642/


I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [dtoce] [ In reply to ]
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dtoce wrote:
so, FTR, this is old/old news.
I've done the research and actually done the experiment a while back as well, since I was curious. The rec was 0.3 mg/kg and I weigh about ~70kg, so I went with about 2 grams of bicarb in about 4 big glasses of G2. It's a lot-

I planned it on Saturday, a day when I usually do a few short bike sprint races and then an hour race, so it was my usual Saturday race day.


On the plus side, I can say that for me, it improved my ability to do repeat sprints but that was about it. I did not test breath holding or crazy stuff like that. It did not change my ability to hold one hour power. It did not change my max sprint power and I tried several times during the races to go all out. I raced two or three sprint bike races on the day @ 1 hr and ~3 hrs and did another the next day.

I had the perception that I was still fatigued as I was doing these short sprint races as usual, but surprisingly, I was still able to hold almost the same pace and power for each of the several consecutive races. If I remember correctly, my best race was a super sprint bike race the next day. That was unusual for me. In the past, my performance had a definite steady decline with each subsequent race.

On the down side, it makes you very bloated. It was hard to drink so much of it and I mixed it with G2 and could likely have gone a bit more concentrated. Definitely moves the bowels! I retained water and my weight went up and stayed there for several days.

All in all-not worth it as a performance benefit unless chasing a very short race effort and one might load in the evening on Day 1 and race in the morning on Day 2.
marcag wrote:
The world tour teams use it in TTs and TTTs.


FYI, there is a podcast on it. Nov 2, 2022 Science of getting faster/Trainerroad.

Dr Jason Siegler explains there are potential GI side effects, therefore a protocol to taking it in before competition (2-3 hours) , and in his opinion not for recreational riders.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Rob, I still wonder how the effect of neutralizing stomach acid, and the associated generation of carbon dioxide can impact the stomach homeostasis? In general the strong acidic environment of the stomach is important for digestion, secondly the bile released in the duodenum is intended to neutralize the acid that passes from the stomach, again upsetting the normal process if the materials passing are neutral. All of this means you probably need a significant over supply of bicarbonate to have it remain as an ion in the bowls. I can then understand it moving into the blood stream as bicarbonate ions but the other things do bother me. Yes I agree it is proven that bicarbonate does make it to the blood stream, that is easy to test and prove, the how always bothered me and your explanation is helpful in that area for sure. I am not sure the small benefit is worth all of the negatives. Certainly not for the average athlete, but maybe different for those where a 0.6% improvement is the difference in 1st to 3rd place in a race.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
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s5100e wrote:
Thanks Rob, I still wonder how the effect of neutralizing stomach acid, and the associated generation of carbon dioxide can impact the stomach homeostasis? In general the strong acidic environment of the stomach is important for digestion, secondly the bile released in the duodenum is intended to neutralize the acid that passes from the stomach, again upsetting the normal process if the materials passing are neutral. All of this means you probably need a significant over supply of bicarbonate to have it remain as an ion in the bowls. I can then understand it moving into the blood stream as bicarbonate ions but the other things do bother me. Yes I agree it is proven that bicarbonate does make it to the blood stream, that is easy to test and prove, the how always bothered me and your explanation is helpful in that area for sure. I am not sure the small benefit is worth all of the negatives. Certainly not for the average athlete, but maybe different for those where a 0.6% improvement is the difference in 1st to 3rd place in a race.

Agree without question.

Sometimes the "is it appropriate for YOU" conversation is lost. For me - as a high-level collegiate 400mH it helped me PR and win some of my biggest meets. If I were coaching an athlete to whom performance truly mattered, it would definitely keep it in the arsenal of legal ergogenic aids.
For me as a 41 year old dad looking to have fun and stay fit - I haven't touched it in years!

I do wonder if the Maurten "soup" gets around many of the issues you mentioned above. Still have to ask whether it's worthwhile on an individual athlete by athlete basis, but maybe that changes the equation.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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xtrpickels wrote:
I do wonder if the Maurten "soup" gets around many of the issues you mentioned above.

That was supposed to be the AMP Lotion pitch too. They have pixie-dust levels of sodium bicarbonate in the gel (relative to the levels required for effective oral ingestion) with the theory that their super delivery mechanism super efficiently ferries it through the skin and somehow into blood.

I do wonder if that's the case, or if it's just marketing.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
xtrpickels wrote:

I do wonder if the Maurten "soup" gets around many of the issues you mentioned above.


That was supposed to be the AMP Lotion pitch too. They have pixie-dust levels of sodium bicarbonate in the gel (relative to the levels required for effective oral ingestion) with the theory that their super delivery mechanism super efficiently ferries it through the skin and somehow into blood.

I do wonder if that's the case, or if it's just marketing.

Their website doesn't give quantities of sodium bicarbonate. As a matter of fact they give an empty ingredient list

Other bicarbonate products do.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:

Their website doesn't give quantities of sodium bicarbonate. As a matter of fact they give an empty ingredient list

Yeah, I was just inferring pixie dust levels based on the low volume gel applied compared to the Cocaine Bear volume of pure sodium biocarbonate needed for effective oral ingestion.
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Re: Maurten Bicarbonate? Eh? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
marcag wrote:


Their website doesn't give quantities of sodium bicarbonate. As a matter of fact they give an empty ingredient list


Yeah, I was just inferring pixie dust levels based on the low volume gel applied compared to the Cocaine Bear volume of pure sodium biocarbonate needed for effective oral ingestion.


Are they even allowed to not publish it ? Bizarre.
Last edited by: marcag: Mar 2, 23 9:41
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