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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [timr] [ In reply to ]
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timr wrote:
Appreciate the time to do a write up. Good stuff!!

Quick take #1. Burying Sam in the swim would be tough. He was ~3' down and won by over 7'. Nobody is going to put 10' on him. At this point, 70.3 distance, Sam would have to falter in order to get beat. I want to see him race this distance against Blu and Hayden Wilde. Throw Lionel in for grins and tickles.

Serious question, was the 2024 bike course yesterday meaningfully different than it was for 70.3 Worlds 2021?

Iden rode 1:58 that day and ran 1:11 on a (subjectively) harder run.
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]
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Lurker4 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Lurker4 wrote:


Great write up. In regards to your quick take 3 on the run, the run as definitely more difficult than 2022/23 years except for when we climbed up red cliffs in 2020/21.

This year we traded the flat section in town with a loop around the park for more climbing back out of town with a loop around the church. Significantly more climbing than last year, but Sam has said he loves the descents so it suited him well too.

StG is such a great race. I'm always surprised it doesn't sell out.

Just out of curiosity how much vertical did you have on the 2024 run in st. George vs 2023/2022?

Good question, here's a bunch for comparison. I flipped between strava data and device data to see if it was out of wack and it was consistent.

2024 half - 875 ft
2023 half - 784 ft
2022 half worlds - 757 ft *
2022 Full - 1594ft
2021 half - 1010ft
2021 half worlds - 1092ft

*this should be a little more gain than 2022 worlds though I'd think because we did a little climb near the golf course entrance

Thanks. At Sam's level an extra 120 ft of vertical over 2022 for example is almost irrelevant. I talked to many age groupers who felt it was a lot harder and that makes sense the lower your threshold speed is.
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Ajax Bay wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
monty wrote:
My big question now is does sam start thinking about the Ironman series?? . . . I mean he probably cannot win the thing, but with one, maybe two fulls, well it could be possible to podium?? He could still get some good $$ for doing 5 half's at this level too, especially with a great worlds performance at the end. Has to be entering his mind I bet, so perhaps a full will suddenly appear on the horizon after a little break now for a good training bloc...
I chatted with Sam at Eric Wynn's ST get together BBQ in St. George. It "sounds" like Sam may be contemplating a full IM this summer some time. He mentioned Penticton being an option
Penticton isn't a Series race, however lovely and a living/surviving legend (and I appreciate the reason you might float that).
I'd be surprised if he chose to race an IM just 'for fun': to be meaningful surely he would want to race a stacked field? And racing anywhere except an IM Pro Series race will be a 'B' field (racing one would take prize money from the the neo-pros who need it).
Long's two top 70.3s plus 2700+ points at Taupo means he could rack up 12000 points with two more 70.3s.
With his contracted T100 events, whilst he needs to race 3 more times, plus GF, he only needs one more podium in the regular season races. That determines when he might slot in an IM (or heaven help us two IMs) or two more 70.3s, or one of each.
So which T100 offers his best chance of good points? Probably not SF with its swim and climbing, and van Riel there btw.
London looks good with Ibiza a possible, but with an enhanced level of post Olympic competition. Las Vegas will lose all the Kona bound athletes but that'll mean a wedge of wildcard weapons to beat. So let's target London (end July) with Las Vegas as the standby, and Dubai as the kick return.
He has multiple North American 70.3s to choose from in the next 7 weeks so that's not a determining factor. But IMs?
If only one then IMLP is the obvious choice (21 July) but that would mean shelving London as a 'top finish' target.
Frankfurt on 18 August is another, but likely the winner there will be further ahead, and 'every second counts'. And he doesn't travel well. Doesn't clash with anything, though.
The numbers (tl;dr probably not worth it):
A set of five scores, including one good (for him) IM raises the IM Pro Series potential score to 14,500 which will be top 10 (my estimate) and remember #8 only pays $20k.
But an athlete who places average #20 when completing two IMs plus Kona (30 minutes down in all three) plus a couple of 70.3s (15 minutes down x 2), scores 13,800.
The max possible score (Ryf 2018 dominance) is 21,500. We might expect Lange to score about 19,000 points (now on 6519, +4800 (Frankfurt), +1900 (10 mins down in a second 70.3), +5800 (Kona)) and not go to Taupo (he has no slot nor likely to get). Who else, as a benchmark for whether it's worth Long trying to score 5 times?
We might expect Mignon to score over 18,000 points (now on 4641, +4400 (Frankfurt), +4000 (two 70.3s), +5400 (Kona)) and not go to Taupo.
I assume Blummenfelt is going to validate his AQ for Taupo after Cagliari (guess a gentle training day @ Les Sables) so he with only four races could score 15,300 (2000+4700(Frankfurt)+5800(Kona)+2800(Taupo))
Of course the current IM Pro Series standings include only NA races (x 3) and the European contenders have IM Vitoria and IM Frankfurt to show their cards before Kona. So we have a skewed insight to the likely players.
I shall cross post this into another (non-event specific) thread.

Remember, he is all in on T100. He would be racing an IM to qualify for Kona.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [MadTownTRI] [ In reply to ]
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MadTownTRI wrote:
timr wrote:
Appreciate the time to do a write up. Good stuff!!

Quick take #1. Burying Sam in the swim would be tough. He was ~3' down and won by over 7'. Nobody is going to put 10' on him. At this point, 70.3 distance, Sam would have to falter in order to get beat. I want to see him race this distance against Blu and Hayden Wilde. Throw Lionel in for grins and tickles.

Serious question, was the 2024 bike course yesterday meaningfully different than it was for 70.3 Worlds 2021?

Iden rode 1:58 that day and ran 1:11 on a (subjectively) harder run.

2021 had km or so false flat out of Sand Hollow parking lot on chip seal where now we race in sand hollow on fast asphalt. So faster now in this section.

2021 had an out and back chipseal road after leaving the sand hollow sand dune climb that was a hard u-turn, so that's a little slower than the u-uturn we make on the highway outside of sand hollow now. Plus a similar out and back in 2021 into the town of Washington that was a little bumpy and slowed things a bit. But 70.3 worlds had bike catchers earlier on Tabernacle street so you didn't have such a long slow down to get into t2 in 2021. So maybe we could say this bike course was 30s-1min faster.

Gustav of '21 vs Sam of '24, Sam still loses, but by 1 minute instead of 4 if you ask me.
Last edited by: Lurker4: May 5, 24 13:09
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
Ajax Bay wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
monty wrote:
My big question now is does sam start thinking about the Ironman series?? . . . . . so perhaps a full will suddenly appear on the horizon after a little break now for a good training bloc...
I chatted with Sam at Eric Wynn's ST get together BBQ in St. George. It "sounds" like Sam may be contemplating a full IM this summer some time. He mentioned Penticton being an option
Penticton isn't a Series race, however lovely and a living/surviving legend (and I appreciate the reason you might float that).
I'd be surprised if he chose to race an IM just 'for fun': to be meaningful surely he would want to race a stacked field? And racing anywhere except an IM Pro Series race will be a 'B' field (racing one would take prize money from the the neo-pros who need it).
Remember, he is all in on T100. He would be racing an IM to qualify for Kona.
If you think that's his motivation (I don't and @Dev doesn't imply this), that'd be another reason he would choose IMLP. If he chose Penticton it'd be a great opportunity to snag a slot for the IMWC in Nice; in 2025.
https://files.constantcontact.com/...a14-689124e00d3a.pdf
He can be "all in on T100" and still race Roth, IMLP (but clashes with T100 London), or Frankfurt.
An athlete at the top of his game, and moving into PTO Ranked #1 on Wednesday, surely wants to race against the rest of the best. So really Frankfurt is the race that properly meets that criterion (Lange, Blummenfelt, ?Mignon, ?McNamee) . Of course IMLP is logistically much easier and there'll be a few people there (Europeans will all choose Vittoria if they need to race an IM in July).
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Ajax Bay wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
monty wrote:
My big question now is does sam start thinking about the Ironman series?? . . . I mean he probably cannot win the thing, but with one, maybe two fulls, well it could be possible to podium?? He could still get some good $$ for doing 5 half's at this level too, especially with a great worlds performance at the end. Has to be entering his mind I bet, so perhaps a full will suddenly appear on the horizon after a little break now for a good training bloc...
I chatted with Sam at Eric Wynn's ST get together BBQ in St. George. It "sounds" like Sam may be contemplating a full IM this summer some time. He mentioned Penticton being an option
Penticton isn't a Series race, however lovely and a living/surviving legend (and I appreciate the reason you might float that).
I'd be surprised if he chose to race an IM just 'for fun': to be meaningful surely he would want to race a stacked field? And racing anywhere except an IM Pro Series race will be a 'B' field (racing one would take prize money from the the neo-pros who need it).
Long's two top 70.3s plus 2700+ points at Taupo means he could rack up 12000 points with two more 70.3s.
With his contracted T100 events, whilst he needs to race 3 more times, plus GF, he only needs one more podium in the regular season races. That determines when he might slot in an IM (or heaven help us two IMs) or two more 70.3s, or one of each.
So which T100 offers his best chance of good points? Probably not SF with its swim and climbing, and van Riel there btw.
London looks good with Ibiza a possible, but with an enhanced level of post Olympic competition. Las Vegas will lose all the Kona bound athletes but that'll mean a wedge of wildcard weapons to beat. So let's target London (end July) with Las Vegas as the standby, and Dubai as the kick return.
He has multiple North American 70.3s to choose from in the next 7 weeks so that's not a determining factor. But IMs?
If only one then IMLP is the obvious choice (21 July) but that would mean shelving London as a 'top finish' target.
Frankfurt on 18 August is another, but likely the winner there will be further ahead, and 'every second counts'. And he doesn't travel well. Doesn't clash with anything, though.
The numbers (tl;dr probably not worth it):
A set of five scores, including one good (for him) IM raises the IM Pro Series potential score to 14,500 which will be top 10 (my estimate) and remember #8 only pays $20k.
But an athlete who places average #20 when completing two IMs plus Kona (30 minutes down in all three) plus a couple of 70.3s (15 minutes down x 2), scores 13,800.
The max possible score (Ryf 2018 dominance) is 21,500. We might expect Lange to score about 19,000 points (now on 6519, +4800 (Frankfurt), +1900 (10 mins down in a second 70.3), +5800 (Kona)) and not go to Taupo (he has no slot nor likely to get). Who else, as a benchmark for whether it's worth Long trying to score 5 times?
We might expect Mignon to score over 18,000 points (now on 4641, +4400 (Frankfurt), +4000 (two 70.3s), +5400 (Kona)) and not go to Taupo.
I assume Blummenfelt is going to validate his AQ for Taupo after Cagliari (guess a gentle training day @ Les Sables) so he with only four races could score 15,300 (2000+4700(Frankfurt)+5800(Kona)+2800(Taupo))
Of course the current IM Pro Series standings include only NA races (x 3) and the European contenders have IM Vitoria and IM Frankfurt to show their cards before Kona. So we have a skewed insight to the likely players.
I shall cross post this into another (non-event specific) thread.

Yesterday Sam said he IS doing T100 San Francisco.

I have not tracked it, but I assume Penticton is an Ironman Pro race, but perhaps not part of the Pro Series but does it offer pro slots to go to Kona? If so, Penticton is easy travel given it is in Sam's time zone and maybe an easy Kona slot and if he has all the T100 points he needs, then he does Penticton as a training day gets his Kona slot and races penticton for IM Pro series points.

I have not skin in the game on Penticton, Sam was the one who mentioned it as a potential event
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]
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Lurker4 wrote:
MadTownTRI wrote:
timr wrote:
Appreciate the time to do a write up. Good stuff!!

Quick take #1. Burying Sam in the swim would be tough. He was ~3' down and won by over 7'. Nobody is going to put 10' on him. At this point, 70.3 distance, Sam would have to falter in order to get beat. I want to see him race this distance against Blu and Hayden Wilde. Throw Lionel in for grins and tickles.

Serious question, was the 2024 bike course yesterday meaningfully different than it was for 70.3 Worlds 2021?

Iden rode 1:58 that day and ran 1:11 on a (subjectively) harder run.

2021 had km or so false flat out of Sand Hollow parking lot on chip seal where now we race in sand hollow on fast asphalt. So faster now in this section.

2021 had an out and back chipseal road after leaving the sand hollow sand dune climb that was a hard u-turn, so that's a little slower than the u-uturn we make on the highway outside of sand hollow now. Plus a similar out and back in 2021 into the town of Washington that was a little bumpy and slowed things a bit. But 70.3 worlds had bike catchers earlier on Tabernacle street so you didn't have such a long slow down to get into t2 in 2021. So maybe we could say this bike course was 30s-1min faster.

Gustav of '21 vs Sam of '24, Sam still loses, but by 1 minute instead of 4 if you ask me.

I appreciate the analysis! If you were to go back and look at how much having people to work with benefited Iden in 2021 and how a lack of that quality of a field for him to work with yesterday, what do you think that does to his bike time had he raced yesterday?

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [pier87] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone stay for rolldown's? 50-54 in particular
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]
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Lurker4 wrote:
MadTownTRI wrote:
timr wrote:
Appreciate the time to do a write up. Good stuff!!

Quick take #1. Burying Sam in the swim would be tough. He was ~3' down and won by over 7'. Nobody is going to put 10' on him. At this point, 70.3 distance, Sam would have to falter in order to get beat. I want to see him race this distance against Blu and Hayden Wilde. Throw Lionel in for grins and tickles.


Serious question, was the 2024 bike course yesterday meaningfully different than it was for 70.3 Worlds 2021?

Iden rode 1:58 that day and ran 1:11 on a (subjectively) harder run.


2021 had km or so false flat out of Sand Hollow parking lot on chip seal where now we race in sand hollow on fast asphalt. So faster now in this section.

2021 had an out and back chipseal road after leaving the sand hollow sand dune climb that was a hard u-turn, so that's a little slower than the u-uturn we make on the highway outside of sand hollow now. Plus a similar out and back in 2021 into the town of Washington that was a little bumpy and slowed things a bit. But 70.3 worlds had bike catchers earlier on Tabernacle street so you didn't have such a long slow down to get into t2 in 2021. So maybe we could say this bike course was 30s-1min faster.

Gustav of '21 vs Sam of '24, Sam still loses, but by 1 minute instead of 4 if you ask me.

2021 was also a WC, with folks peaking for the event. 2024 was an early/mid season race that Sam was going into after doing a number of IM/T100 races prior.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Titanflexr wrote:
Lurker4 wrote:
MadTownTRI wrote:
timr wrote:
Appreciate the time to do a write up. Good stuff!!

Quick take #1. Burying Sam in the swim would be tough. He was ~3' down and won by over 7'. Nobody is going to put 10' on him. At this point, 70.3 distance, Sam would have to falter in order to get beat. I want to see him race this distance against Blu and Hayden Wilde. Throw Lionel in for grins and tickles.


Serious question, was the 2024 bike course yesterday meaningfully different than it was for 70.3 Worlds 2021?

Iden rode 1:58 that day and ran 1:11 on a (subjectively) harder run.


2021 had km or so false flat out of Sand Hollow parking lot on chip seal where now we race in sand hollow on fast asphalt. So faster now in this section.

2021 had an out and back chipseal road after leaving the sand hollow sand dune climb that was a hard u-turn, so that's a little slower than the u-uturn we make on the highway outside of sand hollow now. Plus a similar out and back in 2021 into the town of Washington that was a little bumpy and slowed things a bit. But 70.3 worlds had bike catchers earlier on Tabernacle street so you didn't have such a long slow down to get into t2 in 2021. So maybe we could say this bike course was 30s-1min faster.

Gustav of '21 vs Sam of '24, Sam still loses, but by 1 minute instead of 4 if you ask me.


2021 was also a WC, with folks peaking for the event. 2024 was an early/mid season race that Sam was going into after doing a number of IM/T100 races prior.

This is a tremendous point - Sam rode and ran like he did for shits and gigs, not for a title

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
monty wrote:
A great race for sam, just like the 3 previous ones, all right on track with super solid bike/runs..But come on Ed, I can think of 10 guys that can give him a race at worlds, none of which are here of course. As I said in an earlier post, the quality of field is super weak here, he should win by this much. I mean who are the next 3 guys again here?? Have we already forgot the 3 different guys that have beaten him this year already, and those with the real potential to once they cross back over to this distance??

He really needs to get that swim down with Lionel, it will matter later on when all the boys are on the line and on fire. Its kind of like there wasn't even a swim today, even though it was a really fast one with the guys at front drilling it..

And I'm a sam fanboy too, just want him to close the gaps so that he is not out run in the big races for the big places...


So based on this even the t100 fields are bad haha.

strength of field for st gerorge was about 84 for singapore it was about 92.5

now strength of field between miami and ocean side was a closer 87.5 oc vs 92 miami
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Ajax Bay wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I chatted with Sam at Eric Wynn's ST get together BBQ in St. George. It "sounds" like Sam may be contemplating a full IM this summer some time. He mentioned Penticton being an option
Penticton isn't a Series race, . . .
I'd be surprised if he chose to race an IM just 'for fun': to be meaningful surely he would want to race a stacked field?
Yesterday Sam said he IS doing T100 San Francisco.

I have not tracked it, but I assume Penticton is an Ironman Pro race, but perhaps not part of the Pro Series but does it offer pro slots to go to Kona? If so, Penticton is easy travel given it is in Sam's time zone and maybe an easy Kona slot and if he has all the T100 points he needs, then he does Penticton as a training day gets his Kona slot and races penticton for IM Pro series points.

I have not skin in the game on Penticton, Sam was the one who mentioned it as a potential event
Penticton is after the IMWC 2024 qualification deadline and is not an IM Pro Series race (see my earlier post you quoted). And it does not offer a "Kona slot" because it's after the deadline (Frankfurt is the last one). I was not suggesting Long misses T100 San Francisco, just that he only needs one more excellent T100 and that London or Las Vegas are better chances for that (Las Vegas because half the field will be already in the Pacific).

ProTriNews review: https://podcasts.apple.com/...1865?i=1000654581534
Last edited by: Ajax Bay: May 6, 24 7:15
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
Titanflexr wrote:
Lurker4 wrote:
MadTownTRI wrote:
timr wrote:
Appreciate the time to do a write up. Good stuff!!

Quick take #1. Burying Sam in the swim would be tough. He was ~3' down and won by over 7'. Nobody is going to put 10' on him. At this point, 70.3 distance, Sam would have to falter in order to get beat. I want to see him race this distance against Blu and Hayden Wilde. Throw Lionel in for grins and tickles.


Serious question, was the 2024 bike course yesterday meaningfully different than it was for 70.3 Worlds 2021?

Iden rode 1:58 that day and ran 1:11 on a (subjectively) harder run.


2021 had km or so false flat out of Sand Hollow parking lot on chip seal where now we race in sand hollow on fast asphalt. So faster now in this section.

2021 had an out and back chipseal road after leaving the sand hollow sand dune climb that was a hard u-turn, so that's a little slower than the u-uturn we make on the highway outside of sand hollow now. Plus a similar out and back in 2021 into the town of Washington that was a little bumpy and slowed things a bit. But 70.3 worlds had bike catchers earlier on Tabernacle street so you didn't have such a long slow down to get into t2 in 2021. So maybe we could say this bike course was 30s-1min faster.

Gustav of '21 vs Sam of '24, Sam still loses, but by 1 minute instead of 4 if you ask me.


2021 was also a WC, with folks peaking for the event. 2024 was an early/mid season race that Sam was going into after doing a number of IM/T100 races prior.

This is a tremendous point - Sam rode and ran like he did for shits and gigs, not for a title

Back to back North American Champion is a pretty good title :)

It's all marketing, but the payout is higher and I'd guess his sponsor bonus is more.
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Ajax Bay wrote:
Taupo slots to:
Costes, Wilkowiecki, Sandi, Andrie(#12)
Metzler, Frades, Simpson, McBride
Disappointing to see no coverage of Hamilton running up into second. He passed Quenet and Sperl at about 13km and never looked back.
Did we even see him finish? With commentators focusing on Quenet, Laundry and Costes (in the mix for #3, 100 seconds back).
Hering tried and tried, closing to 22 seconds at 14km but Salthouse looked as if she'd held a bit back for that last 7km. And Findlay eased off massively/sensibly in the last 5km.
Hering shared she will be racing IM Hamburg: it'd be her first IM for 9 years! IM Pro Series influence.
Findlay thinks she might enjoy IMMT, next year - "we'll see!"


Think Long jumps to #1 on the PTO Rankings (with this score = about 98 with the 5% bonus) and as Blummenfelt drops off the plot (has to count his #35 finish in Lahti).
And Findlay (with 92.6) climbs a place, above Philipp.

Why does he get a 5% bonus I thought you only get that for full distance races?
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Re: Ironman Pro Series 70.3 St. George [gusthemuss] [ In reply to ]
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gusthemuss wrote:
Ajax Bay wrote:
Think Long jumps to #1 on the PTO Rankings (with this score = about 98 with the 5% bonus) and as Blummenfelt drops off the plot (has to count his #35 finish in Lahti).
And Findlay (with 92.6) climbs a place, above Philipp.
Why does he get a 5% bonus I thought you only get that for full distance races?
The 5% bonus has slightly morphed for 2024 to an athlete's best 'Gold tier' race or IM. (Previously the only races which could gain the 5% were IMs, any tier). With the IM Pro Series and its $1.7M prize pool, averaged out over 17 races and added to the 'normal' prize purse (varies) for each race, all IM Pro Series races are deemed Gold: both the 70.3s and the IMs. This is exactly the action hoped for: "The PTO encourages race organisers to increase professional prize purses in order to ensure a higher tier allocation in the PTO World Ranking System."

Hence Long scores the extra 5%. Take a look at Sanders' and Knibb's and EPB's scores: they gained that 5% on top of their earned Oceanside scores.
https://stats.protriathletes.org/rankings/men

Sfaik, the PTO have not issued revised PTO Ranking scoring protocol to reflect this decision (shared by Renouf in the PTN interview btw). https://protriathletes.org/...orld-ranking-system/
As an aside this demonstrates that for sterling performances in those races, serious points can be scored, undermining the concern about T100 risking being a closed league. A score by early December of 90 (men and/or women) will get a T100 2025 contract offer (top 16) even with the built-in inflation that I detect (but have have not quantified) in the scoring protocol.

Even though Findlay didn't win by nearly the same margin the SOF was well up, she scored good points (with the 5%) so her PTO European 2023 score (366 days ago so now dropped) can be replaced with very similar points. Philipp, Lee and EPB otoh will drop though may pop back up if a standout in Mallorca/Samorin next fortnight.
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