I suspect the high end Chinese shops (or Taiwanese) have great quality and QC. And the big brands have their own factories over there. They are not outsourcing cheap crap.

BTW, speaking of cheap crap... I have around 80,000 miles on a cheap generic Chinese carbon road frame and fork I bought 12 years ago. The clearcoat is looking shoddy in spots, but nothing has broken yet.

Carbon is simply the best material for bike frames as it excels in stiffness and strength to weight. Ti bikes are cool, but you'd be giving up performance. If you are looking at a Tri/TT frame there will definitely be an aero hit too.

I agree with the premise that carbon is the lightest, stiffest material out there and the ability to optimize aerodynamics is unprecedented. I don't, however, agree that the level of craftmanship and tolerances from even the big brands is up to par with what it should be. Hell, the bike industry is going away from press fit BB's because they can't consistantly manufacture one with adequate tolerances to not creak. Just my $.02 worth.

Depends on the company, but many major North American brands are built by Giant in Taiwan. Which of course is not China. Cervelo I think is built in China.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

You are probably in a small minority. Your perceptions are fed by ignorance of the industry and manufacturing in general. The factories in Taiwan (that most of the top tier brands use) are the best factories in the world. They build to the design and quality spec that the brand gives them. You can buy crap bikes for cheap or extraordinary bikes for more. I love my old steel Pinarello, but I would only consider a carbon bike now. They dramatically out-perform metal. My only exception would be an aluminum Allez, but I don’t race criteriums anymore.

Both are China. One is the Republic of China, and the other one is the people's Republic of China.

I had a carbon frame that has a bad bottom bracket, I bought it used, so no warranty.

When I shopped to replace it, I tried to buy a Moots, the guy at the shop didn't even get out of his chair behind the counter to come talk to me.

I emailed Litespeed and two months later they replied to that email. They didn't even respond to the questions in the original email.

I walked into a Trek store, they couldn't have been more friendly and helpful.
It took six months to get the bike, during that time the prices went up.
They honored the original price, I have a lifetime warranty so I'm not concerned about the bottom either.

So, I'm not concerned about the quality of my high end bike and the two smaller brands just didn't earn my trust for the money they want for their bikes.

One of them sends your money to CCP activities and the other doesn't. To me that's an important difference

This isnt remotely true, though. You are over generalizing.

1. Not even half the NA brands use Giant.
2. Most brands use multiple factories. My wife's trek has a China sticker but I've seen some Madones made in Taiwan.
3. Some frames get either label (e.g. Cannondales SuperSix) likely depending of local regulations on labeling.
4. Some "Taiwan" frames are labeled such even though the frames are made in China and then finished in Taiwan (e.g. Specialized Tarmac).

Don’t merida make specialized frames?

I agree with others that you're maybe underestimating the quality of certain manufacturers in Asia, in terms of technical precision and whatnot. However, I also agree with you that there are a lot of issues with quality control, standards, specs, and so forth that get swept under the rug, that overall bikes are overpriced in certain markets, and that carbon is maybe overrated a bit as a material for bikes.

I wouldn't say that getting a large label carbon fiber bike is a poor choice by any means — that seems kind of undefendable to me — but I do think small craftsman bike makers are maybe underrated in the high-end bike market. In general sometimes I feel like actual functional characteristics are kind of detached from competition, market offerings, and price.

If you want really well made carbon, look at Time bikes. Their manufacturing looks impeccable and they aren't made in China.

I guess my point on the original post is that with the excessive cost of some of these high end frames(around $5000.00USD) and sometimes questionable quality in terms of low tolerances with BB's, headsets, and if you believe some of the talking heads on the internet, voids in the carbon, etc.. I seems as if a lot of the work is outsourced to other companies, so, who makes the best carbon frames if I were in the market. Would I be better off buying a Winspace or other less expensive off brand for basically the same product with less expense, especially since most major brands are now selling direct to squeeze out more profits by eliminating the LBS middle man. Either way, I would theoretically be handling my own warranty issues when the time comes. Full disclosure, my current bike is a Trek Madone series 6 which has a ton of miles on it with no problems, and has been an awesome bike, but I believe it was one the last frame models made in Wisconsin.

True. And now there are a good number of bike brands that manufacture their carbon composite frames in Vietnam ...

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The internet is where people go to complain. No one writes a review for you Madone. Great bike! Not super sexy, but I’ve ridden it 10 years only changing the chain and tires.

If you have a great LBS and want to support them, start with their brands. If not, go with a direct to consumer or big bike shop distributor. Pro’s Closet also seems to be a great middle man in the used department.

No way do I buy a knock off frame and build it. Your choice there is to do it yourself, which I’ve done and don’t t recommend it unless you’re sure you will enjoy doing it yourself, or take it to your LBS that is now butthurt you cut them out of the deal.

With all the trick technology I would follow the most basic of consumer rules and buy something slightly under the flagship model. Me personally, I value Shimano over SRAM on my road bike and want electric with everything internally routed. Super clean. But, I never buy Dura ace or Super Record. But, then again I don’t make dentist money 😉

To each their own but no way I buy that Pinarello, Colnago, Look, Basso, or a host of other top end frame builders, some of whom innovated the technology being used are not controlling quality on their mid to high end frames. Maybe Ridley (of which I own one) is buying a better quality generic carbon frame and labeling it at their bottom end, but still there’s quality control, not to mention a manufacturer deal on the group set to contend with.

Don’t overthink it. Buy something that fits your style and price point and drop the money to have it really fit by a pro, not you LBS.

I’ve owned probably 7-8 different Cervelo bikes and have no reason to doubt their quality any more than a Rolex. What info do you have that should cause me to doubt my personal experiences any more than your assumption about owning a Rolex?

You use the word “outsourced” as if it is a bad thing. The reason that Taiwan manufactures so many top-tier frames is because those factories have invested in the best CF manufacturing technologies in the world, and they are continuously updating. It is not economically viable for most bike brands to maintain that level of manufacture capability. It might surprise you to know that Cervelo outsourced the manufacture of the P5X to HED, in the US, because they could not find a Taiwan factory that could do it at the time.

All of the top tier bike brands are excellent. Many niche frame brands are excellent. Some may manufacture locally, but that does not mean they are better. Research each one and pick the attributes that matter most to you.

Cervelo being a pretty premium bike brand with a good warranty, I'm not sure there's anything bad trusting Cervelo. Although, they probably should have kept making the Px derivatives at HED because that would have justified their cost. Moving production to China should have seen a massive drop in price but it did not.

Honestly I'd look at this like a Ceramic Speed vs SLF Motion/any other cheaper ceramic ball baring company making pulleys. With Ceramic Speed you know you're getting quality. With everyone else what are you getting? So Don't buy an actual off brand mainland Chinese frame off Ali Express. Buy a Trek or Cervelo.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.