Tyler's suspension compared to Palmeiro's in Sp-Ill:

Triathlon Forum
21

On th bone marrow test, I believe I heard on some news program that it is a way to test for chrimerism. And a few posts up, presby also mentioned it. Perhaps some of our illustrious doctors can chime in here and clear up our assumptions.

I also worry about the test, doesn’t mean Tyler is innocent, but if it proves untrustworthy, then he is innocent in the eyes of the law. I remember my first tests back in the mid 80’s, we peeded into open containers, wrote our own names on a piece of tape, taped it to the open cup. and set them on a table with 30 other samples. All in a room, with all the athletes, managers, and press, milling around this table. And yes, there were athletes using in those days that got away with it, because of the shoddy testing procedures. It’s what got things changed over the years. It’s the same as the death penalty laws, better to let 10 guilty go, than convict one innocent. So for better or worse, you could say the few cheats over the years who contested the procedures and won, are the ones who have helped refine the system.

22

On th bone marrow test, I believe I heard on some news program that it is a way to test for chrimerism. And a few posts up, presby also mentioned it. Perhaps some of our illustrious doctors can chime in here and clear up our assumptions.

Well, I’m not an illustrious doctor, but…

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=479750;search_string=bone%20marrow;#479750

Glad to hear it was on the news as well and I’m not (totally) talking out of my ass!

23

Hello,

Again this is from a tyler interview, but the test showed he had the equivalent of a tablespoon of “foreign” blood mixed with his, which in any case would hardly be a benefit. One of his doctors surmised that up to 50% of the population could have blood abnormalities at this level. Levels this small have never really been looked into. I would be curious to hear WADA side of this specific arguement, if in fact both the Olympic test and the actual test that got him banned really showed that small of an abnormality. If it did I tend to say let the dude ride, its not like traces of steroids or EPO where having taken it in the past still helps you.

Styrrell

24

Tyler received a more severe penalty because the size of his head is greater than his whole chest-shoulder region. No man’s upper body should be that small.

Palmeiro is just benefitting from baseball’s infancy in punishing illegal steroid use. Steroid use just recently became illegal in baseball. Baseball will eventually get there. Until then, everyone will have a chance to soapbox their views.

**In a free country, athletes should have the right to use steroids and die young (see Alzado, Lyle; Payton, Walter; Matuzak, John…). **

I don’t see the point in dragging Walter’s name through the mud. Alzado (not doctors) attributed his brain cancer to steroids, Walter never did. I don’t want to over-react b/c I am a Bears’ fan … but mentioning Walter’s name is about as fair as if you had mentioned Hank Gathers.

On top of that, your johnson shrinks from steroid use.

Your testicles shrink a bit since they are not producing as much test. Once steroid use stops, they regain their original function and size.

If steroids made your Johnson shrink … I’d be taking them. I only mention that joke because, IMO, people will remember the joke and rmember that steroid use temporarily shrinks the testicles, not the penis. (CE, I don’t know if you were making a joke or not)

**I’m not saying its right, but its easy to see the temptation. **

Or try this one … you’re a pro athlete, and every year, you lose a little bit of athleticism and the fresh young crop of studs (that are using) are trying to bump you down the depth chart, or out of your sport completely. Not all athletes have a “contingency plan” for a life after the sport.

As I have said before, I do know a few guys that have been pros and a few others that make it very close. They (not all) simply viewed steroid use as something you had to do because everyone else was … or they viewed it as “part of becoming serious about what you are doing”.

I have said before that I would not use them because my son does what I do. I am also not a competitive athlete (anymore) and I was never a pro … so really, my opinion (on that specific matter) isn’t all that relevant.

**Besides people take steroids just to be the best weightlifter in a little poducnk gym. **

Sad, but true. You would be amazed at the variety and volume of steroids some people take just to be “the stud” (or among the studs) at your local YMCA (or even high school gym). I wish I were joking. I can understand why someone would use steroids when it comes to million dollar contracts and lack of life options … but I have never understood taking such health risks (from abuse, not mod use) just to be impressive to a handful of people.

As a side … if steroids were as dangerous as some folks make them out to be, lots of people would be dropping like flies. I wonder how many people, use moderate amounts of steroids, and rotate on/off cycles, with little to no health problems?

25

Monty,

You’ve obviously got your reasons to believe TH is guitly and that’s fine. But I think some things need to be cleared up regarding the above posts.

  1. TH initially testing negative at the Olympics. That’s why his B sample was frozen and then not available for further testing. For some reason (YET TO BE EXPLAINED), someone decided to re-evaluate TH’s A sample AFTER it had been deemed negative - which was/is against WADA’s testing procedures. The people that reevaluated the test had a vested interest because they were in fact, the people that developed the Blood transfusion test - It’s their reputation and $$ on the line.

And why do you think the IOC washed their hands of this as fast as possible - because they followed WADA’s procedures and then WADA said they screwed up? Don’t think so. I also think, but and not 100%, that the IOC was the last organization to sign the WADA charter and there hand was forced by WADA. Something like that.

  1. TH has to prove why he quote “tested positive”. One possible reason is the belief of Chimerism (sp?). The media has taken this possiblity and run with it and made it TH’s main defense. People keep forgetting that the test was only run on (or at least the only published paper on the test) a sample of 25 people. It has never been tested on a large population for the possibility of a false positive. And the crazy thing is that WADA and USADA have taken the approach that there’s no way their test is infallible. Their belief that the test couldn’t be screwed up is hard to believe and the test relies on “I’ll know it when I see it” technology. How would you like to go up against that in court?

TH’s main defense is that the test isn’t perfect. People and the media are just focusing on the Chimerism possibility.

I personally think TH is getting screwed by WADA. I believe WADA has their own agenda and the recent ‘reversals’ lead me to believe I’m correct. Look at what Beke was able to do and WADA’s reaction - to develop a better test?? How many were screwed by a test pushed into production too early?. The Mark French recent overturn. CAS also overturned a recent ruling for the USA Track team enabling the relay members to keep their gold even though one of the teammembers shouldn’t have been allowed to run. CAS made this ruling because the governing body didn’t follow the correct procedures.

TH’s teammate is taking his case to the civil court because he wants his case heard for the facts (my guess). TH decided to play by the rules and go through USADA and CAS. If his case has been tried in a ‘normal’ court, he would be racing today because too many procedures/processes were broken in TH’s case. How would you feel if you were targeted for testing and the people doing the testing knew exactly whose samples they were testing?

I can’t explain why two teammates tested positive. The crazier thing is how come no one else has tested positive? Is it possible that TH and Perez were THE ONLY two in the peleton doping this way? Highly unlikely IMO. And as for Perez, if he was doping during the Vuelta last year, he would have been caught then, not two months after the race. The UCI was able to find TH guilty within days during the Vuelta, but not Perez? Makes you wonder what’s going on behind the scenes.

26

According to TH’s website and even USADA, there isn’t a test for chrimerism.

27

Nothing to do with Payton, but various forms of cancers have been linked to steroids, EPO is linked to heart failure.

Styrrell

Lyle Alzado … Need we say more???

http://www.georgiasouthern.edu/~rpacelle/LyleAlzado.JPG

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*Again this is from a tyler interview, but the test showed he had the equivalent of a tablespoon of “foreign” blood mixed with his, which in any case would hardly be a benefit. *

Do you think he had a fresh transfusion right before the test?

his doctors surmised that up to 50% of the population could have blood abnormalities at this level.

Again no other riders tested positive! that 50% number is bullshit.

If it did I tend to say let the dude ride, its not like traces of steroids or EPO where having taken it in the past still helps you

Um, blood doping is just like taking EPO, and taking it in the past can help you train harder.

29

For some reason (YET TO BE EXPLAINED), someone decided to re-evaluate TH’s A sample AFTER it had been deemed negative

Don’t know why, but Tyler isn’t banned based on his Oympic test results.

People keep forgetting that the test was only run on (or at least the only published paper on the test) a sample of 25 people

There was a second validation study as well - I dont know how many other people were tested in that one.

TH’s main defense is that the test isn’t perfect.

Tyler and his supporters like to make general statements like that, but usually dont back it up with specific complaints about the test itself.

People and the media are just focusing on the Chimerism possibility

People focus on it because Tyler is making public statements that not only could he be a chimera, he could be a “Waxing and waning” chimera which would explain why he sometimes has foreign blood, and then later didnt. (Of course the simple exlpanation that he transfused and then stopped doing it after he got caught isn’t possible, right?)

  • I can’t explain why two teammates tested positive. The crazier thing is how come no one else has tested positive? Is it possible that TH and Perez were THE ONLY two in the peleton doping this way? Highly unlikely IMO. And as for Perez, if he was doping during the Vuelta last year, he would have been caught then, not two months after the race*

I can’t believe you’re interpreting the facts this way. The reasonable interpretation is that since only Tyler and Perez got nailed, this test insn’t rife with false positives like Tyler is claiming! The test may well have false negatives, but that’s irrelevant to Tylers case now, isn’t it.

30

According to TH’s website and even USADA, there isn’t a test for chrimerism.

You mean there isn’t a ready-made chimerism kit test? No kidding.

To suggest that it couldn’t be tested for is naive at best, dishonest at worst (not directed at you personally)

31

Well, it’s my opinion. I just find it hard to believe that only the two leaders of Phonak were blood doping in the Peloton.

To add some more spin damage – Everyone keeps wanted TH to prove why he’s innocent, how come WADA/USADA/and UCI aren’t going public with their results. Seems to me they could do that and end the case.

I also wonder why the USADA asked for an extension before presenting their case to CAS. I would think if they were 100% sure of the results, they would have been chomping at the bit to present their case to CAS. My thoughts are they aren’t 100% sure they will win the appeal that at least they can keep TH out of competion for at least a year.

What’s the difference between a false positive and a false negative? Doesn’t that mean the athlete is guilty in both cases?

32

“You know this to be fact or are you just throwing his name out there.”

2+2=4
.

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I’d love to be wrong, because I knew and respected the man. It’s just that when someone that strong and that apparently healthy dies so young…

And if I were his doctor, I’d try to keep his name clean too.

34

I can’t explain why two teammates tested positive. The crazier thing is how come no one else has tested positive? Is it possible that TH and Perez were THE ONLY two in the peleton doping this way? Highly unlikely IMO.

A possible explaination:

Hamilton and Perez were both blood doping by storing their own blood, collected durng the off-season, then re-infusing that blood closer to competition to increase performance. (They can’t test for this type of doping, yet)

The doctor screwed up and accidentally mixed up the blood and injected Hamilton with Perez’s and vice versa (the doctor was fired by the team, right?).

That’d explain why two people from the same team both tested positive. It makes Tyler’s claim that he’d never knowingly risk his wife’s healthy by taking someone else’s blood true and leaves the door open that everyone else is doping too, but their doctors are smart enough to label the blood correctly.

35

*Again this is from a tyler interview, but the test showed he had the equivalent of a tablespoon of “foreign” blood mixed with his, which in any case would hardly be a benefit. *

Do you think he had a fresh transfusion right before the test? That’s really the only way that blood doping will help your performance. You can’t race if your above 50% HC. You can take EPO in the weeks leading up to a competition to get your HC level up and only traces of EPO will be left by testing time. With blood transfusions yes you have to transfuse close to the testing time.

his doctors surmised that up to 50% of the population could have blood abnormalities at this level.

Again no other riders tested positive! that 50% number is bullshit.

Its a damning arguement I’ll agree, and the 50% number is likely bullshit. However Dick Pound has admitted that TH was targeted for blood tests. I would love to know how many riders were given the same test and what level of scrutiny those tests had, but WADA isn’t saying.
If it did I tend to say let the dude ride, its not like traces of steroids or EPO where having taken it in the past still helps you

Um, blood doping is just like taking EPO, and taking it in the past can help you train harder. See above, EPO and Blood doping aren’t exactly the same thing, but they achieve the same result ie 49.99HC. My point is that the test is new and relies on an expert eye to see small differences, hence the original OG test initially being called negative, then being rexamined and being called positive. Under these circumstances I think you have to at least find a significant amount of doping to have occurred. If Tyler is to be believed and in the absence of WADA releasing a different set of data Tyler is guilty of boosting his HC level from 47.00 % to 47.01%. As to higher HC level in training helping you - I’ve never heard that before. Certainly you could ride faster or longer in training, but that doesn’t guarantee that those benefits will be their at the lower HC level. Its possible that the mental aspect of feeling less strong would be detrimental to a good racing performance.

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/As to higher HC level in training helping you - I’ve never heard that before. Certainly you could ride faster or longer in training, but that doesn’t guarantee that those benefits will be their at the lower HC level. Its possible that the mental aspect of feeling less strong would be detrimental to a good racing performance./

Did you actually read what you wrote before you hit the send button?? So I dope all year, train my ass off, build more strenght, more endurance, recover better, and then when I stop, let’s say a month or two out, I probably get no benifit…Come on now, and a detrimental mental attitude to boot. I think if I’m training faster, longer, and with more recovery, that I’ll have a pretty good attitude going into a race… That’s why I train up here in the mountains, like so many before me, to get the legal and safe advantage of a high HC%. And no, EPO is not blood doping, they just do the same thing…And by the way, once your HC% is built up, it can last up to two months.

37

/As to higher HC level in training helping you - I’ve never heard that before. Certainly you could ride faster or longer in training, but that doesn’t guarantee that those benefits will be their at the lower HC level. Its possible that the mental aspect of feeling less strong would be detrimental to a good racing performance./

Did you actually read what you wrote before you hit the send button?? So I dope all year, train my ass off, build more strenght, more endurance, recover better, and then when I stop, let’s say a month or two out, I probably get no benifit…Come on now, and a detrimental mental attitude to boot. I think if I’m training faster, longer, and with more recovery, that I’ll have a pretty good attitude going into a race… That’s why I train up here in the mountains, like so many before me, to get the legal and safe advantage of a high HC%. And no, EPO is not blood doping, they just do the same thing…And by the way, once your HC% is built up, it can last up to two months.

38

That’s really the only way that blood doping will help your performance. You can’t race if your above 50% HC. You can take EPO in the weeks leading up to a competition to get your HC level up and only traces of EPO will be left by testing time. With blood transfusions yes you have to transfuse close to the testing time.

You can blood dope so that you can train harder…

However Dick Pound has admitted that TH was targeted for blood tests. I would love to know how many riders were given the same test and what level of scrutiny those tests had, but WADA isn’t saying.

Can you point me to where he said this?

39

However Dick Pound has admitted that TH was targeted for blood tests. I would love to know how many riders were given the same test and what level of scrutiny those tests had, but WADA isn’t saying.

Can you point me to where he said this?

Directly form the arbitration award on page 2.

“On September 11, 2004, at the Vuelta, cycling competition, Mr. Hamilton was targeted for testing at the request of the UCI.” It may not have been Dick Pound who did the targeting, but they were specifically looking to test Tyler.

http://www.usantidoping.org/files/active/arbitration_rulings/AAA_CAS%20Decision%20-%20Hamilton.pdf

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That’s really the only way that blood doping will help your performance. You can’t race if your above 50% HC. You can take EPO in the weeks leading up to a competition to get your HC level up and only traces of EPO will be left by testing time. With blood transfusions yes you have to transfuse close to the testing time.

You can blood dope so that you can train harder… Monty brought this up also. You can certainly train faster, and its possible that their will be some bennefit, but no one has shown that training at say 50%HC then racing at 42%HC is bstter than training and racing at 42%HC.

However Dick Pound has admitted that TH was targeted for blood tests. I would love to know how many riders were given the same test and what level of scrutiny those tests had, but WADA isn’t saying.

Can you point me to where he said this? I can’t. I distinctly remember it and I suspect it may have been in his Velonews article, but I’m not sure. He said that Tylers tests in the past had shown irregularities, which weren’t enough to suspend him but were enough for them to target him for additional and new tests. He also mentioned Kevin Livingston as a rider they were suspicious of, due to lower HC levels out of competition than in competitions. Styrrell