The concept of "free speech" has no context in private domains, does it?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I would need a little more context about the WV protest to understand your points around private vs public.

Seems reasonable that people can protest in a public way that isn't disruptive. Disruptive protest is not allowed but sometimes tolerated. However, there is no guarantee of free speech at private events or using private media. I am open to some regulation of private media that have access to public resources or protections.

The protests against the trans athlete can happen in any number of places. The decision was made they don't happen at a track meet. I can agee with that. This is not unusual that athletic events are deemed to be a "protest free" zone. Case in point the kneeling NFL players having been mostly beaten down. Tommie Smith and John Carlos were hammered for their act. The Russian gymnast who decided to wear a small Russian "Z" emblem to a podium presentation.

They were not suspended from school. They were barred from participating in the next track meet. Just pointing it out because it's very different from being barred from campus.

Also, soybean oil isn't bad for you. You have an amazing ability to pick the wrong side of just about any issue!

I can agree with it because having been the organizer of various scholastic sports events, I wouldn't want that headache, wouldn't want to put the athletes or my volunteer officials through that stress. Gonna do protest politics at my meet, I'll kick you the F out of my meet.

It's pretty funny (and ironic) that they banned the girls from competing against girls but not the boy.

I applaud them for standing up for what's right. More girls need to do the same.

I think we should protest your inability to effectively post a link and you should be suspended until you figure it out.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Nah, go after the adults who made the decision. Trying to humiliate a young girl with gender dysphoria at a track meet is just cruel and stupid. This is not an adult like Lia Thomas. I may disagree with the decision, as an event organizer, being forced to accept her as an athlete in the women's field, but once she's accepted, she's on my watch. Try to humiliate her I'll march you and anyone else out of my meet personally. Want to hold up signs on a public street outside my meet, I can't do anything about that....

For some people harassing trans kids is the only time they care about women’s sport

I respect your opinion.

I'd still be proud of my daughter if she protested.

If this child has gender dysphoria you get them help and treatment. You don't affirm it buy letting them compete against girls, IMO.

Crisco is made out of soybean oil, used to fry many foods. So you are saying French fries are not bad for you. Thanks for trying to derail the thread

Wow, that was just some astoundingly bad application of poor logic. Well done.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I have an awesome rock that I found on the beach, and I've never been attacked by a tiger. slowguy, I'll sell you my tiger-repelling rock for the low, low price of $100. Don't miss out on this deal. The logic is impeccable.

It's ironic in shot put/discus. Those women are frequently - maybe usually - social outcasts. The "big girls."

Cruelty is boundless. I remember on a long team bus trip, I got "stuck" sharing a row with our women's 'put/discus person, who had to be over 250lb. There was already sniggering among the rest of the bus. But then apparently at some point we both fell asleep, and in such a way that her head was resting on my shoulder. Pictures were taken and posted in the dawn of the social media era. Didn't affect me - I was a "cool guy" just being roasted. It was cruel to the woman.

But yeah, now we have guys "standing with" the women's 'put/discus athletes. Heh.

   
From an AP article on the subject:

“Transgender women are women, period,” Jarvis said. “If you want to support women, you need to support all women. Becky and all of the other trans youth across our state deserve to fully participate in school activities and athletic events.”

What percentage of the US population actually believes that "transgender women are women, period"? I thought "period" was a bit ironic given the topic...

I can't imagine it's very many people. Even if you believe transwomen deserve to participate in women's sport or use women's bathrooms, do you believe that transwomen ARE women?


Woman is defined as an adult human female, and there's no question that transwomen are not female.


It makes me wonder what would happen if you put some activist "transwomen are women" type of people through a lie detector test what the results might indicate...

They're not being suspended for protesting, they're being suspended from taking over a building and damaging property.

The explanation around the link was fairly nonsensical as well. I didn't have the energy to try to decipher the point of the post. Maybe we can combine this with the "SDG is a liar, and crappy troll" protest? Two birds, one stone.

fixed, was posting from my phone. much easier to do on the laptop

America never fails to amaze me. The issue of a transgender person trying to compete in shot put made its way all the way to the federal appeals court and now the state AG is involved and it may go to the Supreme Court. Maybe this is why more lawyers per capita than anywhere else it seems

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Agree. Completely idiotic.

Agree, the law passed by West Virginia was completely idiotic. The fact that it was so quickly blocked by the courts confirmed, yet again, that big government regulation is not the answer.

It is also idiotic that a M2F trans person is competing in the shot put.

I don’t think the shot put case went to the federal appeals court. That was the cross country case. The shot put case is in the early stages.

Regardless of that detail, yes, we are a very litigious society. We are lousy at resolving our differences amicably and so expect the courts to decide all this stuff. This case is a good illustration: the parents file a lawsuit because the track coach disciplined their daughters for showing up to a meet and then forfeiting? They are even complaining to the court that the track coach made them run sprints. The horror!!

Throwers are throwers for a reason. They will always whine about running.

Good point. Maybe the track coach really did know how to punish them.

It is middle school track. At that age there is limited difference between boys and girls.

And isn't puberty blockers getting them help and treatment, if they are on puberty blockers then they haven't gone through puberty in which case how are they advantaged?

Its middle school. Middle school track and field should be the most welcoming sport out there. Everyone can compete, this is prepuberty. Girls are still routinely beating boys at that age. In 7th grade my daughter was running times from the 100m to the 800m that would score in the boys events. She isn't doing that as a senior in HS.

so lets make things simple and all the sports be co-ed

Not so much. Also the boys middle school shot put is 8.8 pounds and the girls is 6.

Current PSD Middle School Track and Field Records (6-11-15) Girls Event Record Name School Year 100 Meter Low Hurdles 16.54 A. Larson Kinard 2015 100 Meter Dash 12.46 Lawler Webber 2000 1600 Meter Run 05:12.45 L. Gregory Preston 2013 4 x 100 Meter Relay 52.28 Webber 2010 400 Meter Dash 57.29 M. Fox Preston 1999 200 Meter Low Hurdles 29.33 Lesher Webber 2011 800 Meter Run 2:22.81 Ogan Lesher 2005 200 Meter Run 25.69 A. Koopman Lesher 2013 800 Meter Medley Relay 1:56.50 Webber 2000 Discus 105'9" K. Jestes Lincoln 2003 Shot Put 38'7" G. McDonald Webber 2014 Long Jump 17'10" A. Koopman Lesher 2013 Triple Jump 36'2" Willer Kinard 2008 High Jump 5'5" Paul Lesher

2010 Boys Event Record Name School Year 100 Meter Intermediate Hurdles 14.47 L. Brannen Kinard 2015 100 Meter Dash 11.17 Gish CLP 2011 1600 Meter Run 4:47.46 E. Aldern Webber 1999 4 x 100 Meter Relay 47.81 Preston 1996 400 Meter Dash 53.28 Barlow Preston 2002 200 Meter Low Hurdles 26.65 D. Morales Blevins 2010 800 Meter Run 02:10.24 E. Aldern Webber 1999 200 Meter Dash 23.48 D. Morales Blevins 2010 4 x 400 Meter Relay 03:54.23 Preston 2002 Discus 155'5 1/2" Bundy Webber 2002 Shot Put 51'7 1/2" Vanalsburg Lesher 1994 Long Jump 19'7 1/4" D. Morales Blevins 2010 Triple Jump 40'3" Trostel Wellington 2001 High Jump 6'3" Trostel Wellington 2001 Archived Records Event Boys 82 Meter Intermediate Hurdles Record 11.87 Name Gish School CLP Year 2011 82 Meter High Hurdles 14.48 Rosseneau Lincoln 1994 Girls 75 Meter Low Hurdles 10.96 Lester Webber 201


Shot Put 38'7" G. McDonald Webber 2014 ( Girls )

Shot Put 51'7 1/2" Vanalsburg Lesher 1994 ( Boys )

And for others, cheering on biological men beating biological women is the only time they care about women's sports.

I, at least, coached several girls' teams.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

For 13 year olds? Not remotely true. My cousin's 13 year old son recently ran 2:04 in the 800m. That's 2.5s faster than the world record for 13 year old girls. The boy's 13WR is 1:56, 10s faster than the girls 13WR.

And since we are talking about the shot put, the 13WR is 22% further for the boys than for the girls.



http://age-records.125mb.com/

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Out of curiosity, there seem to be some important details missing.

1) What was the nature of the protest? Did they simply elect not to compete, or did they hold up "God Hates Fags" signs?

2) Who banned them?


I kicked a kid off of a team because he refused to run an event I told him to run (and was a douche bag about it). That could easily get reported as, "Kid banned from team for protesting the 400m." I'm not suggesting that's what happened here. I'm just curious if this came from the coach, the school, or some governing body, and what was the nature of the "protest."

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Each girl walked into the circle (not sure the technical name) picked up the shot, then put it back down and walked away.

Trans-women are NOT women. Period.
Also, if a 13y/o is transgender they need mental counselling.

The coach banned them from the next meet. See paragraph 24:

https://westvirginiawatch.com/...-wo-verification.pdf

I never quite understand all the teeth-gnashing and emotion over terminology. Calling her a "woman" is a social accomodation. One great thing about America, IMO, is our accomodation to those with disability or mental health conditions. Both on terms of law and in American culture. Ramps for people who use wheelchairs. Kindness and legal protections for people with Down syndrome. Why there's this visceral desire to not accomodate people with gender dysphoria, I don't know....the costs of using preferred pronouns and other terminology seems pretty minimal to me. I have zero problem with it. The costs of accomodating them in women's sports is something with likely costs and side effects to other stakeholders...notably "cisgender" women. I have problems/questions about that.

...granted some of our social accomodation has taken time to adopt...like for gay people took a long time, and is possibly regressing at the moment.



The girl in the OP has almost certainly has an official diagnosis of gender dysphoria - though her medical history is, of course, private. So she's likely been under medical supervision, which is pretty likely to include counseling.

Let's not.

She has been on puberty blockers and hormone therapy. The facts in the court opinion don’t — and shouldn’t — disclose any mental health counseling.

The key legal issue is whether they were punished for forfeiting (which a coach surely has the right to do) or for the expressive protest (which would raise free speech issues). The plaintiffs argue that they were engaged in free expression. I assume the defendants will argue that handing the shot to the official is not really expressive, it’s just forfeiting. That is, they were not expressing anything other than “I forfeit.”

I would think that defense argument would be easily countered. No one ever really does something for no reason, and it’s not credible that the girls all just decided to forfeit in a coordinated fashion just for the sake of forfeiting.

That said, I could see a bunch of athletes coordinating to forfeit because they don’t like a coach’s curfew rule, for example, and it would seem within the coach’s authority to punish them for that, even though it’s expressive.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

My impression is that it's an "all or nothing" proposition where you're either with us or against us. Either a transwoman is a woman, period, and should be treated in all ways including women's sport participation as the woman you claimed that she is, or you're a transphobic bigot.

None of the other accommodations you mentioned above require me to lie or change the definitions of very well established terms.

Yes, they had a reason for forfeiting. But, the question should be whether they were punished for the forfeit itself or because of the underlying message in the act of forfeiting. A coach should be able to punish an athlete for forfeiting even if the athlete had political reasons for forfeiting, so long as the coach was motivated by the forfeit and not the political expression. In trying to figure out the coach’s motivation we could look at various facts, including the prior history of punishing (or not) players who forfeit. Another fact would be the nature of the forfeit: as it involves less expression and is mostly just a forfeit — as happened here — it becomes more likely that the coach was motivated by the forfeit and not the athletes’ (minimal) political expression.

Yeah, I would separate, in my mind, the issue of what the athletes were expressing from what the coach’s reasoning was for the punishment. They were clearly expressing some form of protest based on the trans athlete, and I doubt that was unclear. So the issue is whether or not the coach punished them for protesting, or for the subject of their protest, or for the negative impact of the forfeits to the team.

I could absolutely see a situation where a coach pulls the athletes aside and tells them he respects their right to protest, but he’s obligated to protect the team, so he’s only going to punish them for a single subsequent competition. I can also see a coach pulling them aside and telling them they’re transphobic bigots and punishing them for that. Obviously lots of detail we don’t seem to know that would be required to make a good judgement.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I simultaneously support women for protesting by forfeiting, while also saying that I likely would have suspended them as well.

Of course, it depends on the details. If they discussed ahead of time that they wished to forfeit, I would probably have allowed it, but would have told them that they are not to go up to the ring and make a display of it. Not while they are on the team that I'm in charge of.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I generally agree with this point. The problem arises when it is forced speech by the government (ie Jordan Peterson's complaints), or when it becomes this Orwellian newspeak where was say, "well yes, we'll call them women to accommodate them, but the reason why we are calling them women is because they actually are women, and if they are actually women then obviously they have the right to compete in the women's division."

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Jordan Peterson lied about bill C-16 in order to build his following. He has been proven wrong yet he continues to push that lie because it makes him money.

What about being forced by the government, i.e. through a judgement with financial penalties and threats of future judgements, for “harassing” an employee by mis-addressing them of their chosen pronoun, even by people who would have no reason to have known their preferred pronoun? That’s happening right now as we speak.

I’m not saying that’s good or bad as I can’t comprehend what these people are going through, but it is actual litigation that is happening.

Harassment is bad, they shouldn’t do it.

Cases like this are often misrepresented in the press. The reality is the bar for violating the Canadian civil rights act is very high. You have to be doing some serious harassment to be charged.

Seems like at least among most posters here there's been a pretty middle of the road approach. I think it's fair to say most people have been of the position that society should respect trangender people including kids, but that allowing transgender women to compete in women's sports divisions is unfair to cis women.

This is in the US and you are right, harassment should require intent.

Hopefully Ike will chime in on this, but my impression of situations like this in the US, including sexual harrassment, is that the behavior typically has to be repeated, the person told to stop the behavior, etc.

I mean you could do something really eggregious like send a dick pic unsolicited to a co-worker, or go off on some foul profanity laden insulting bigoted attack of a transgender person, but for most ill conceived but minor offenses nothing more than a talking to, maybe some sensitivity training, etc. would be done.

Maybe Canada is different, but I can't imagine some could posibbly be taken to task for an honest mistake, let alone sued. Well I guess a person could try but hopefully the courts would be sensible.

In Canada gender identity was added to Canadian Human Rights Act 7 years ago. It made illegal to discriminate against trans people for stuff like employment or housing. It also made "advocating genocide and the public incitement of hatred" against trans people illegal but the bar is high for a criminal conviction.

Back when they were considering the bill Jordan Peterson lied about it in order to raise his profile. He falsely claimed that misgendering someone could result in criminal charges. This was clearly false and 7 years later nobody has been arrested in Canada for misgendering someone.

Why not? Make everything like CAT bike racing. I have been on teams where we didn't have enough boys and we recruited girls, to still do decent. If boys limited to boys only, we would have never got a chance to play

Because I greatly enjoy watching women's sports as pure women's sports. I just watched stage 5 of the Vuelta Feminina.

There will be not one millimeter of movement for me on this position. Argument is futile.

No argument, but are you watching for the reason athletic females are attractive? On that note yes, I support all female events. But the world of "fair play" is coming arbitrary

I'm not sure that has a simple answer given, as a cisgender male, the female form is generally pleasant to look at even at a subconscious level.

But, no, I don't think that's way up on the list of reasons. I watch just as much men's sports. I watch women's sports with kit that doesn't emphasize the female form (granted there aren't many sports like that). My favorite female athletes are often not considered "Instagram hot." - I won't name names because I hate playing the "hot or not" game. I enjoy the essence and drama of good competition. Women's sports doubles that for me.

RogerC39 is a labor lawyer and probably knows this stuff well.

My understanding tracks yours. The occasional innocent mistake does not violate the law. Persistently using the wrong pronoun, when you’ve been told the correct pronoun, could constitute harassment based on gender and possibly even a hostile work environment. Most people are capable of distinguishing between: (1) someone who wants to use the right pronouns, but just slips up from time to time and (2) someone who intentionally uses the wrong pronoun to antagonize the other person or to make some political point.

I'm not sure that cat racing is a good example.

It's been years, but my recollection is that they would run men's and women's both separately or combined. So you could see at the same event a women's Cat 1/2/3 race and then a men's 5/women's 4 race. And while men wouldn't be allowed to race in an exclusively women's race, women were allowed to race with the men. I remember my daughter racing both the women's 1/2/3 and then the men's pro/1/2 race for training and experience.

They often raced juniors by age all together, and then broke down the winners by sex.

The knowledge that she is on puberty blockers and hormone therapy is itself HIPAA-protected information. So I presume it was voluntarily disclosed to the public at some point.

My assertion that she *likely* has a gender dysphoria diagnosis is that putting a young person on puberty blockers absent specific diagnosis would probably not be following standard medical practice. And it could conceivably be some other diagnosis than gender dysphoria, but that is the most likely.

And my assertion that she *likely* is/was undergoing counseling is that my lay reading indicates that arriving at medical intervention (drugs or surgery) is typically done only after exhausted "due diligence" in other forms of symptom relief. Which, per my understanding, usually involves a lot of talking to the person with dysphoria.....counseling.

Because then you lose women's divisions and you lose women's winners.

As an example, a girl won our country championship in XC last year with a time of 19:12, beating second place by 12 seconds. If you make it an open championship, when would have finished 72nd place.

Winning a championship in front of a crowd of spectators cheering you on is a whole different experience than finishing 72nd in an open race.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Let’s separate her medical privacy from her name. In order to win her lawsuit she had to disclose her puberty blocker/hormone history. Those facts are essential to her case. Revealing certain personal facts can be the price of admission if you want the public courts to resolve your case.

But, in terms of revealing her name, she is a minor. Her complaint does not list her name. It just has her initials. And I’d expect a court to just use her initials or other anonymizer in its opinions.

Her family has been open about this, including some media coverage with her picture. So, it’s obvious who the “BPJ” is that the opinion references.

I have no idea what you mean. I never mentioned her name (and have already forgotten it) or anything related to the privacy of her name, and was purely discussing her medical history, which I made clear was speculation on my part. A claim was made she "needs counseling." I was speculating that she probably already gets it. That's all. It would, generally speaking, be unusual for a young child on puberty blockers to not also receive counseling in parallel. That is all.

Sorry for the confusion. I just meant let’s separate the two issues for analytical purposes and then had a paragraph on each issue. It was not at all a criticism direct at you.

Then we need weight divisions, age divisions, everyone podiums!

No worries!

You're just trolling at this point.

Now you're just talking crazy, I can't think of a single sport where those exist.