Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46

Any wins after her EPO admission should have an “*” next to them. I personally believe that once you cheat in a sport you should not be allowed to complete in that sport ever again.

So you don’t believe once one served their penalty, that they should be allowed to race? Curious to how you view crime. If one shoplifts, should one never be allowed to shop again? What if one get’s caught speeding. Should license be pulled forever? What about a college kid that gets a MPI, should they never be allowed to touch alcohol again? etc. etc.

Why are you making these stupid comparisons?

A 2-year ban is not enough to discourage athletes from rolling the dice.

In case you’ve not been paying attention the 1st year ban is going to 4 years.

Still not enough in my opinion.

I think 4 years is enough initially and I will explain why. Second round should be lifetime.

There are a many of reasons I can live with 4 years. First of all, kids are not that smart about the ways of the world and will do anything a coach tells them to do to make it “big time”. I can see a young kid being shoved the dope by his coach saying this is the final step that gets him there and its safe, everyone is doing it and he should too. Parents are equally stupid and if coach tells a kid that this is the ticket to the NFL or superstar sprinting, then next thing you know the kid is on it. As a coach of teenagers, some of them fairly elite athletes, these kids will do whatever I say. For example in the junior races in the Coupe de France Nordic skiing, the kids are not allowed to use the high florocarbon waxes which make the racing like night and day, but can be $200 per application. Then it becomes “up the coach” if his kids are ski “doped” or not. The kids will use whatever the coach says. I am not sure how they exactly police that in France. Here in Canada and the US, we allow them to use the best wax they can get. Go to the high school races, and the kids have exactly the same stuff at they have in the Olympics.

If we recall, Olympic 100m sprint finalist Ray Stewart who later became a Jamaican coach was banned for from coaching for trafficking steroids, “Hey kids, I was the first Jamaican under 10 seconds, this is how it is still done…get on the program”. There are a lot of vulnerable teens and young adults who end up doping this way. They are under the spell of their coach.

They deserve a ban, but I think 4 years is enough to learn the lesson.

For adult athletes, who dope, 4 years is an entire Olympic cycle, and far enough away from your last palmares, that you likely won’t get a protour contract, you won’t get a Barclay’s Premier League contract (if FIFA was actually serious…let’s see the first FIFA EPO/Steroid/HGH bust…remember the infamous championship Juventus squads winning all over Europe at the peak of the Bjarne Riis EPO era…) and you won’t get to start a triathlon as a pro for at least a year without re earning your pro license. For older athletes, it can kill a career. Women’s triathlon is "so much less competitive in depth and there are so many IM races, that you can win one when 46, but that won’t happen on the men’s side. Also women pro triathletes are generally 30-50 lbs lighter than the men, and run slower, which prolongs their careers. The larger men (you need to be bigger to compete as a pro man to be fast enough on the bike) break down a lot earlier than women. For a pro male caught doping at 34, he’s only looking at coming back at 39. His career is going to be over and will need to find a way to at least generate revenue for 5 years.

I’ve met Nina personally several times, and been in the same races shortly after her ban was lifted. She returned much slower than her former “Nina the Machina” self. I am inclined to believe that she is truly sorry for her time doping, is racing clean, racing much slower and frankly not competitive on the global scale. If Mirinda Carfrae showed up at Louisville, and Nina did this exact same performance we would have zero discussion because she would be way off the back. Just because no one fast showed up, now we’re having “the doper won” discussion. Last year, Nina was 7 minutes slower, was 4th, and essentially had the same performance on much less current. No one said anything. The hate is on right now because no one faster than her showed up.

I feel there is more overall hate for her here than Natasha Badmann probably has today.

Well said.

I would modify that slightly though, in that second bust should, IMO, be lifetime from “pro” ranks, maybe 6-8 years from Age Group. If they want to come back and just race for fun in their later years, I don’t have a problem with that. AG competition is ultimately just about personal acheivement anyway (IMO), there’s no real money or glory in it, so why not?

It’s like the Lance thing referred to above, he isn’t even allowed to compete at a masters meet. I bet a lot of folks would have liked to have seen where they stack up against him, I know I would have.

Have any of you people who pile on to the dopers ever played a serious team sport? I played soccer in college and it was extremely competitive and you cheat whenever you can to get an advantage on the field…get caught you serve your time and move on. I had dozens of yellow cards and a few red cards but i was able to get inside other teams heads and piss them off to the point where i had a serious advantage, am i allowed to stomp guys feet, no, but if the ref does not see it never happened. A family member played D1 football and the coach wanted him to put on 20 lbs one off season and said do what you need to do, he ran some cycles and boom he was back on the starting squad. That is how sports work, its a game and the people who take the most risks win. I am not supporting doping but i also don’t care, take the risk and suffer the consequences if you are caught.

Edit:

I remember a conversation i had with my father ( nuro-radiologist/Full Prof) who argues it’s stupid not to allow endurance athletes the use of EPO since they are naturally suppressing their EPO levels on the daily basis. He said the same for T therapy and a wide range of other hormones. This was in response to the TDF which in his opinion is putting such a huge stress on the body you should allow the riders the full medical spectrum of recovery aids. He just laughs when endurance sports are so closed to the idea of any medical advancement being used in the sport but all the new gear and technology is fine.

This is an interesting statement by your father (an outside) but the exact reasoning why protour cyclists have been doped since 1905…the event places insane demands on them that are not natural. I remember when the FIS Tour de Ski was set up and and thinking “these stages are a joke…I could get all my 14 year olds, to do every stage one the same day and they would get through fine”. And I think that was exactly the point. Not that skiers are not doped but they set up the racing so it was possible to do it clean and recover and race the next day.

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That’s pretty much the gist of what I was getting at. PED = cheating = lifetime ban is a stupidly simplistic way of looking at it, when there are other modes of cheating that have as much or greater benefit to the cheater, are potentially just as harmful to the cheater or the one being cheated, but no-one is calling for lifetime bans for drafters. And yeah, there are plenty of serial drafters who benefit from it every time they race… Just that PED’s seem to be this extra special super taboo form of cheating.

Not to mention all of the different things that one could test positive for. If I take a Sudafed, then I don’t think anyone here would reasonably say that I should be banned for life. What if I have a life-threatening medical condition which, for a short while, requires that I take EPO as part of the treatment? Should I be banned for life from a sport I enjoy if my health recovers? What if I drank too much coffee in the 1980’s and tested positive for caffeine back then, should that be a lifetime ban even though caffeine is no longer on the list?

My stance against PEDs has nothing to do with safety. It is simply a variable that I feel should be controlled when people play sport. Sport is, in large part, about comparing oneself to everyone else. There are a ton of things that make one better than another, but we have generally decided that drugs should not be one of them. Accordingly, if someone does not want to play by those rules they should not get the chance to compete.

I have no problem with increasing bans for drafters. I think drafters suck. The problem is that it is a lot more likely that someone drafts by mistake than someone takes PEDs by mistake. It is almost impossible to inadvertently test positive for caffeine.

So if you take stuff like HGH, EPO, ACAIR, steriods, testosterone, masking agents, or fail a bio passport you get a lifetime ban. We do we want people that would go to such lengths in sport?

why lifetime for first offence though? See dev’s post, he pretty much echos my thoughts.

“He just laughs when endurance sports are so closed to the” idea of any medical advancement being used in the sport but all the new gear and technology is fine"

I kind of like the doping angle in sport. What makes the greats great is their willingness to do ANYTHING to win…new gear, technology, training harder or drugs. Beat down Test, move to EPO and hGH…Beat down on EPO move to Gene Therapy. Like it or not drugs are here to stay…

Have any of you people who pile on to the dopers ever played a serious team sport? I played soccer in college and it was extremely competitive and you cheat whenever you can to get an advantage on the field…get caught you serve your time and move on. I had dozens of yellow cards and a few red cards but i was able to get inside other teams heads and piss them off to the point where i had a serious advantage, am i allowed to stomp guys feet, no, but if the ref does not see it never happened. A family member played D1 football and the coach wanted him to put on 20 lbs one off season and said do what you need to do, he ran some cycles and boom he was back on the starting squad. That is how sports work, its a game and the people who take the most risks win. I am not supporting doping but i also don’t care, take the risk and suffer the consequences if you are caught.

Edit:

I remember a conversation i had with my father ( nuro-radiologist/Full Prof) who argues it’s stupid not to allow endurance athletes the use of EPO since they are naturally suppressing their EPO levels on the daily basis. He said the same for T therapy and a wide range of other hormones. This was in response to the TDF which in his opinion is putting such a huge stress on the body you should allow the riders the full medical spectrum of recovery aids. He just laughs when endurance sports are so closed to the idea of any medical advancement being used in the sport but all the new gear and technology is fine.

Glad you don’t coach kids…hopefully.

why lifetime for first offence though? See dev’s post, he pretty much echos my thoughts.

There is merit to his argument. However, for me, doping is serious enough, and easy enough to get away with, that one shouldn’t get a free pass because they were young or dumb.

As I said before, there are so many excellent and clean athletes that follow the rules, that I feel ok being merciless with the ones that don’t.

why lifetime for first offence though? See dev’s post, he pretty much echos my thoughts.

There is merit to his argument. However, for me, doping is serious enough, and easy enough to get away with, that one shouldn’t get a free pass because they were young or dumb.

As I said before, there are so many excellent and clean athletes that follow the rules, that I feel ok being merciless with the ones that don’t.

Well, no-one is advocating that. 4 years out of competition is a REALLY long time…

You are still stuck in the fantasy that the authorities have a pretty foolproof method for catching cheaters. False positives are possible as well as sabotage and innocent mistakes. Plus the stricter the penalties and the fewer people cheat, the greater the benefit to those who do it and get away with it. Life time bans don’t solve the problem.

It was just unnecessary for him to bring it up. It is not ironic just his agenda. She doped in 2004, paid the price, served the penalty. He did not have to bring it up nor do you. Do you really believe no one deserves a second chance? Especially from 10 years ago? If so, pity your newborn twins for the life lessons you will bestow on them…

Really, you are going to bring my kids into your very weak argument? Like i thought, you do not have the irony gene, and no where do I or Timothy say she should not have been allowed to race. But go ahead and make up some more shit that we did not say to brown nose your way into Nina’s heart. And for the record, teaching my kids lessons in not cheating the first place, and accepting responsibility for your actions in life, will be life lessons that I will be proud to show them.

See that is where he disagrees and suggests these drugs in fact will make athletes healthier than their current state. Assuming well trained doctors administer proper doses the physicians can correct any imbalances and help the athletes recover. All of these drugs are used daily in the medical field but there seems to be a stigma attached with PED’s, i think in part due to the bodybuilding community which has had so many deaths recently, but they are also a great example of abusing drugs to the point of serious side effects. Remember when the Fed’s had their clean up baseball thing years ago and brought all the players to congress and had them under oath? During those “trials” or “truth conferences” they brought in several physicians who all stated that steroids are seriously dangerous for athletes but interestingly none of those physicians had published a single paper demonstrating that to be true. Those proceedings caused a backlash in the medical community who argued the exact opposite that there is no conclusive evidence that steroids use in low to moderate doses causes health risks (bodybuilders who do 20 times a normal level do not count). Yes their are potential side effects to any drug but as with moderation the chance for side effects is quite low.

Well said.

I would modify that slightly though, in that second bust should, IMO, be lifetime from “pro” ranks, maybe 6-8 years from Age Group. If they want to come back and just race for fun in their later years, I don’t have a problem with that. AG competition is ultimately just about personal acheivement anyway (IMO), there’s no real money or glory in it, so why not?

It’s like the Lance thing referred to above, he isn’t even allowed to compete at a masters meet. I bet a lot of folks would have liked to have seen where they stack up against him, I know I would have.

A little off point, but your right re:the lance thing. I never really bought bout it prior o your post, but racing LA at a Masters meet would be fascinating.

From a personal perspective I was faster than he was in HS, but he has had a lifetime of the highest level training, has unliimited time to train currently and is, regardless of his chemical enhancements, a world class athlete. I bet a lot of old swimmers would crawl back in th pool if they knew that challenge was out there.

Have any of you people who pile on to the dopers ever played a serious team sport? I played soccer in college and it was extremely competitive and you cheat whenever you can to get an advantage on the field…get caught you serve your time and move on. I had dozens of yellow cards and a few red cards but i was able to get inside other teams heads and piss them off to the point where i had a serious advantage, am i allowed to stomp guys feet, no, but if the ref does not see it never happened. A family member played D1 football and the coach wanted him to put on 20 lbs one off season and said do what you need to do, he ran some cycles and boom he was back on the starting squad. That is how sports work, its a game and the people who take the most risks win. I am not supporting doping but i also don’t care, take the risk and suffer the consequences if you are caught.

Having played sports “seriously”, I feel totally qualified to let you know that most people you played against viewed you as standing on the fault line between insufferable and dangerous, and that what you describe isn’t how sports “work”.

Just because someone isn’t going to punish you, doesn’t mean it’s alright to lie, cheat, steal, or engage in any other behavior that you couldn’t engage in if a camera was focused on exclusively on you.

I know Nina a little bit, I would not say very well though. I’ve trained with her a couple times, rode/ran from her house with a couple other folks, swam in her pool after the workout. This is a lady that just lives/eats/sleeps triathlon. She lives a modest life and from everything I could see, this is the ONLY thing she knows. She coaches some athletes, and she is constantly coaching whomever she is working out with, regardless of whether or not you are paying her. She has an unbelievable amount of respect for the sport AND the current crop of younger/faster female IM athletes. She has no delusions (or reason) to think that she is going to compete with the top tier IM athletes on the biggest stage, but she loves the Louisville race and just like any of us, has to look for new ways to motivate. I think it is dangerous to extrapolate behavior over the masses since we are all wired different, she has WAY more to lose that to gain by risking doping at this stage and I say there is no way she would take the risk. I was tracking her and rooting for her to pull this off and was very happy for her to get the win. Good on you Ninja!

Qoute…“You cheat whenever you can to get an advantage”
So you cheat in business? When you sell a car you fuck your nieghbor? Cheat to get what you want from your wife (lie). Cheat in school to get ahead(great for your kids). When by principle if you live that way on the field you dont justify it in all other walks of life. …Sp you admit you have no problem drafting to get a kona spot over your competitor? You do not have a problem if someone drafts to get your spot if they are not caight? Why have any rules?

Replying to thread in general.

Can we get a list of dopers we are supposed to hate? Because I’m confused. Lance we need to hate. Michi Weiss we need to hate. Lisa H again hate. But Nina Kraft we are cool with? Am I missing anyone?

I’m kind of scratching my head over this as well. Definitely some inconsistency to how this board views doping. Lance and Michi were basically nailed to a cross and told they should never race again, but Nina “served her time”, so it’s all good? Didn’t Michi serve his time too? It didn’t seem to matter before. What makes Nina different?

Have any of you people who pile on to the dopers ever played a serious team sport? I played soccer in college and it was extremely competitive and you cheat whenever you can to get an advantage on the field…get caught you serve your time and move on. I had dozens of yellow cards and a few red cards but i was able to get inside other teams heads and piss them off to the point where i had a serious advantage, am i allowed to stomp guys feet, no, but if the ref does not see it never happened. A family member played D1 football and the coach wanted him to put on 20 lbs one off season and said do what you need to do, he ran some cycles and boom he was back on the starting squad. That is how sports work, its a game and the people who take the most risks win. I am not supporting doping but i also don’t care, take the risk and suffer the consequences if you are caught.
.

Triathlon is a young enough sport that cheating hasn’t become ingrained like it has in the “serious” team sports that you mention. I think that was part of the appeal to a lot of us who had played team sports before we got into triathlon.

Hopefully you didn’t bring that attitude into triathlon and have found that you can enjoy the sport without cheating whenever you can get away with it. If not, please go back to playing soccer. Thanks!

Lance and Michi were basically nailed to a cross and told they should never race again

I disagree with that too… I don’t know the Weiss scenario, but in Lance’s case, he was demonstrated to have doped over an extended period of time, and there was a lot of ancilliary stuff too. He shouldn’t be allowed to race as a pro again, but if he wants to serve his time and then come back as an AG’er at 50, why not?