WHat is the difference and what does it mean to me?
808 = 82 mm front + 82mm Rear (or, get a disc and it = 999)
404 = 58 mm front and 58 mm rear (or a disc = 909)
What does it mean to you?
$$$$$! 
808-404=404
twice the sex appeal = twice the sex.
think about it!
But the 909 is only tubular, correct? And 808’s are available in clincher.
what’s the real difference…
about 10 seconds over 40k.
as for tubies vs. clincher…something tells me no…but i hope i’m wrong.
YES. I WOULD BUY 808’s AS CLINCHERS!!! MWAHAHAHA…
although…since the 909 is tubular only…something tells me the 808 is similar…
you can get 808 as a clincher. It’s the disc that is always a tubular
wickedness.
My thoughts exactly…that is why I run a HED jet deep front (90 mm) and a HED disc (Poor man’s Zipp) It doesn’t compare in weight or dimples, but they do their jobs and they’re both clinchers.
i’m currently running a renn 575 (that frank kindly upgraded on warranty…God bless that man) as well as a spinergy PBO tillium up front. Cost me about 1000 CDN, which is close to what the zipp front would cost me. the zipp may be nicer…have huge sex appeal…but until i get a job (still a student), i think i’m going to be riding the ones i’ve got.
that, and i’d prefer to buy a road bike before i ‘upgrade’ wheels.
it means about 1 bike length for the avg slowtwitcher over 40k. Or the same distance that an extra 5k running per week would gain someone.
that, and i’d prefer to buy a road bike before i ‘upgrade’ wheels.
See–that is sort of the plan that is coming together. Move the Velomax Vista wheels from my P2K to my Cannondale CAAD4 road bike frame. Buy Zipps for my P2K.
it means about 1 bike length for the avg slowtwitcher over 40k. Or the same distance that an extra 5k running per week would gain someone.
Brian, I’m disappointed - I expected “it’s about 3:20 less than spending the same amount on a good swim coach would get you”. 
well…if you’re already in the zipp price range…the difference isn’t huge i guess.
that said…you could do it a lot cheaper and get pretty much the same effect.
as a member of this board, i suppose it’s a given that i’m a fan of Renn, but after using the disc and seeing the customer service, that’d be my route if i had to do it again.
throwing the disc on the back (esp. the new madiera @<1000g) and then maybe get something ‘fancy’ up front would save you some coin.
however, if $$$ isn’t an issue…go balls out…they look facking hot. and it’s the new and fancy toy. you’ll have ladies drooling over you and guys wanting to be you.
If I knew a good swim coach, I would spend a little there, as well.
My friend races with a Hed 3 up front and Renn in the rear - clinchers. This choice is a much better value.
I race with 909’s so tubular 404 up front and zipp disc in the rear. This choice is sexier.
Its a coin flip which is faster in my opinion. I’d take 909’s over 808’s but 909’s are tubular so you’d have to be willing to go that route…I’d imagine the 808 front would catch more wind but I’m a big fan of always running a disc. You could always get a clincher 404 or 808 for the front and a clincher (Renn or Hed disc for the rear but they wouldn’t match…).
I think clinchers are fine for race wheels and in a lot of ways makes more sense for most people - familiarity with changing flats and its easy to carry a couple spare tubes. You can get lighter with tubulars but thats not worth much in my opinion…if you go tubular you have to go through the glue vs. tape debate - and spare tubulars are big and bulky…
The one big advantage of a Hed 3 up front is that I hear the things are very strong so less worries hammering over bumps/railroad tracks…in races. If I hit something on my 909’s I worry a little and I’ll bike a little more conservative in races in places (not necessarily a good thing). I’ve heard a lot about speed wobbles with Hed 3’s but not sure if thats a real thing or not.
One other thing to consider is power meters - will you ever get one? Will you race with one? It makes race wheels more complicated depending on which you get. I’d get a power meter before I bought race wheels…Race wheels are sexy and cool and fun to look at but not worth all that much in the real world in my opinion…and the differences between good race wheels is very very small.
Dave
it means about 1 bike length for the avg slowtwitcher over 40k. Or the same distance that an extra 5k running per week would gain someone.
An extra 5k running per week - say that’s about an extra 20 mins per week. Assuming the typical Slowtwitcher earns about 80k per year, that’s about $40 per hour, so an extra 5k running per week costs about $13 per week. The Zipp wheelset is about an extra $1000 over the reasonably priced H3/Renn option. 1000/13 = 75 weeks, or about 1.5 years. Therefore, if you keep the Zipps for over 1.5 years, you’re saving yourself money compared to running an extra 5k per week. C’mon - Zipps are the logical choice.
Thanks Dave–I train with power on the CT, but I don’t have that info on a outside ride. I’m OK with that.
This is what Zipp posted on the forum last fall.
404 weight: 1290gm, aero advantage 2-4 seconds per 40k over last years 404, 2-6 seconds over popular 3 spoke
606 weight: 1345gm, aero advantage 10-12 seconds per 40k over new 404
808 weight: 1395gm, aero advantage 12-14 seconds per 40k over 606
909 weight: 1535gm, aero advantage: 0-2 seconds over 808, but 4-6 seconds faster in 16mph cross wind
999 weight: 1585gm, aero advantage: 14-16 seconds per 40k over 606
Monk -
You are compounding problems again my friend. We need a to hash all this out in one thread!!!
Anyhoo, if you are remotely considering becoming a roadie, I’d hope you chose race wheels that can pull double duty…and you’ll need another set of training wheels.
With that said, you can not road race a disc or a Hed 3. But, you can race an 808…although a few guys would scratch their head.
I’d start off with a 404 set and then buy a disc (preferably a Zipp, but any would do) when the time/$$$$ become available.
I still want a foot update…is it dry yet?
Monk,
I happen to know someone who is a rather talented technique coach in the phoenix area. Many of his swimmers got paid to go to D1 schools, some won events at Sr. nationals (that may be due to more than just good technique though) and a couple qualifed for Olympic trials.
To Khai’s point a good swim coach can save you more than any set of race wheels ever will.