This is my first attempt at a post to SlowTwitch - be easy on me. I’ve be reading the various threads on tires, tape, glue and wheels and I want to get your feedback.
I am thinking of getting either the Zipp606 set or 808 for Kona - I am a bit worried that the 808 might throw me around in the crosswinds, but the aerodynamics are appealing. Thoughts?
Tires - Tufo seems very appealing as far as being able to use Tufo tire sealant and Tufo Tape to mount it. There seems to be a lot of controversy over the “speed” of these tires though. Can the Tufo Tape or sealant be used with other brands of tubular tires (coated / non coated??)- Zipps? Continentals? I’ve always used clinchers up to this point and am a bit lost when it comes to the ins and outs of tubulars. Any advice / help you can give me would be appreciated.
I have a set of 909’s - I bought tubulars. I always use clnchers in traininig. I have no idea if the tufo thing is real or not, but here is my opinion:
Sealant - I’ve used it - it lasts for 3-4 months so you need to figure out if you want to keep adding it and adding it = more weight each time or if you will be changing tubulars regularly (gets expensive). Also - how will you carry a spare? My plan was to use sealant and not carry a spare. I like a clean looking bike without a ton of extra junk tied all over. If you do want to carry a spare tubular - then you either have to use glue or use both glue/tape together which seems questionable…I’ve heard that the sealant only works for tufo’s but don’t know that for a fact.
Tape - some question the effect on rolling resistance. Some question the strength. Seemed to work for me and very easy to use. I’m a bit worried about getting it off the rim when I switch over to glue which I likely will after some testing…
Tufo tubulars - I have a set. If I had to buy now - I’d get either the Zipps or the Vittoria and use glue. I don’t need the worry that my tires are slow…
Tubular vs. clincher. I’d be very tempted to buy clincher if I had to buy now. The hassle factor with tubulars is more and I see only 1 benefit to tubs over clinchers and that is weight. The 404/606/808’s are quite a bit lighter in tubular form but we all know that does not matter much.
Clearly the 808’s are the faster wheel of the 404/606/808 but I think the difference is quite small. Not sure of the handling differences. Consider calling Zipp and talking with them…if you buy a set of 808’s and a set of 909’s then you can mix/match and make a set of 606/808/909/999 - 4 wheelsets and $3K+ later…
Nice thing about clinchers is the familiarity, easy of swapping tires, carry a small tube for a spare, aluminum brake surface…likley as fast or some say faster - I don’t think the comfort thing is a big deal.
If you think the sealant is such a need, you can also get that for clinchers or get clincher tubes with it already installed (AKA Slime). Also with clinchers you have the option of running a belt inside the tire to prevent thorn and glass flats.
The choice is up to you.
With the Tufo sealant, it requires a removeable valve core. You have to examine each tubular brand and type to see if they have it other than Tufo which has it on all of there tires AFAIK.
Installing tubulars is a real bear on deep rims and disks. There’s no where to grip versus non-aero rims - it’s possible to damage some wheels if you push too hard on the aero part of the rim while installing the tubular.
If you are gluing to carbon, the Vittoria Mastik 1 is the best, though I use Conti glue. I also use the Vittoria Corsa KS or KX - it’s the slick one. Works fine, I suppose.
You can try the sealant on any latex tubular, but it will not work the same (probably not at all) - when you get a puncture, some of the sealant will leak through between the tube and the casing, and I am not sure that is something you want. It works on tufo’s because there is no tube.
Tufo sealant does not work on standard (non-tufo) tubulars, period.
I have seen people try to make it work, and it’s a messy catastrophe, and it will leave you stranded and/or pissed off at the urban-legend monger whose friend of a friend “got it to work in his Vittorias no problem.”
Surprise. Surprise. I’m actually going to defend Tufo now. A friend of mine contacted the guy who did the Kansas study. It turns out, they never pressure-activated the tape, they just popped the tire on and then tried to roll it off. For the tape to work, you have to put serious pressure on it first. I know from experience that the tape comes off real easy if you’ve never actually put the wheel on your bike and hopped on for a few miles. Now, I also know, from recent experience, that if you have put a few miles on the tape, it is a @$%@^^@%#$ to get off (at least the “extreme” tape is). I’d bet there are few, if any, glues out there that hold harder than that tape!
As far as rolling resistance goes, there is some reason to suspect that it’s the Tufo tires and not the tape that are the culprit. Who knows, the tape might actually lower rolling resistance over some of the softer glues (I’ve yet to see a test of another tire brand put on with the tape, maybe I’ll do one if I’m bored).
I’d consider another tubular brand/tape except for the flat issue. With tufo’s - you have sealant. What would be the flat plan with Vittoria’s/Zipps and tape? Unless you do the tape/glue combo…
Although a friend of mine raced St croix with a tubular that was not glues or taped…I thought that sounded balsy/dumb/scary…how hard is to roll a tubular that is not glued or taped?
“It turns out, they never pressure-activated the tape, they just popped the tire on and then tried to roll it off.”
That’s very interesting - seems he missed the boat there. I may try the stuff at some point and see how it works for me. The glue is sure a mess I could do without, but in some was gluing tires is a bit theraputic.
I am pretty much convinced that the rolling resistance issues are with the tires - the issue exists with the tubular clinchers, too. Very disappointed with this, since they are bomb proof.
I know it seems that the rolling resistance is higher with the Tufos but I wonder how much difference it makes? I mean if it’s like 0.001 watts, I’d rather run the Tufos with sealant. The sealant has saved me twice now… Guessing we’ll probably never know exactly which tire is the fastest as no company in thier sane mind would ever fund this and it would be expensive to do correctly by an independent tester. Something like towing a bike at a constant speed with rider to balance it, carefully keeping his position and using a strain gauge on the tow rope to figure out how much power it took to tow at that speed all while doing this indoors with constant temperature… Yeah, I’ll just take the tires that look cool, don’t flat, and my local shop carries:)
Looks to be between 15-20 watts. So no, it is not insignificant.
It is a disspointment to me too, 'cause the Tufos are really bombproof. But do you race always planning for a flat? I don’t think you can…
Which I think is the other reason not to tape. If you do have to change, how do you change a taped tire? Tape & glue? Has anyone done this??
I currently run Tufo Elite Jets, but I’m gonna switch to Vittoria Corsa CX’s and give a whirl. I’ve never liked the Tufos as much as the VeloFlex Record clinchers I ran, and was interested to see all the talk here about RR which has prompted me to at least try some other tires…
However, Normann Stadler did ride a Schwalbe Stelvio (which is supposedly just a rebadged Tufo; at the very least, the construction is the same) to the top-spot in Hawaii, so I doubt he would have been willing to give up serious wattage to RR…