there are companies out there that use the zipp 404 rim and build their own wheels with it. Velomax for example. If you check reviews and opinions on forums or review pages, Velomax gets the far better reviews on their hub, spokes and building than zipp. American Classics is another example of this. The prices are virtually the same, at this price-level at least.
Why are people buying Zipp’s then?
I have bought a pair of 03 404’s, and I can not believe that there is a better hub combination than the ZIPP 84/202 available for retail purchase. I think the previous zipp hubs were getting a sorta bad rap. The bearings in the 84/202 are by far the slickest turning that I’ve been exposed to (velomax, ksyrium, dura-ace, and ultegra). Also, the design is so easy to take apart for maintenance, even though I haven’t had to take it apart for any reason excepth curiousity. My one complaint on the 202 hub (rear) is that the cassette body is aluminum, and the part wears from sprinting / mashing on hills etc. my .02
I think there are a few reasons- and please remembe this is from a retailer and a triathletes perspective since I am both.
First of all, its brand recognition. Most consumers are not as well informed as you and do not realize that Zipp rims are used by a number of manufacturers. Either way, Zipp earns a good and fair living selling their carbon fiber rims, either to other wheel builders or end user consumers.
Zipp hubs are very simple, but good. I use them. I like working with Zipp and I like their disk wheel.
Having said that another comapny that has come a long, long way is Spinergy. They also have some product you simply can;t get from any other manufacturer that I am aware of, such as their PBO spokes. Very, very nice. Super comfortable ride- probably the most comfortable, and absolutely bombproof durability. Good hubs now too.
Tom,
About Spinergy, I think we have been there and I don’t want to trash a company or their product without having on-hand experience. But as a consumer looking for a new set of race wheels, I search the web for reviews and experiences of other cyclists. And Spinergy is one of those that get very mixed reviews. Now, a company has to do different things to satisfy me as a consumer. 1) offer a product that does some things at a certain price and that combo has to be competitive. 2) Advertise it as what it really does. 3) have good customer support before and after the sale.
The only practicable tool we (as consumers) have to put pressure on a company that doesn’t do one of the 3 points, is spread the word to others. It goes the other way too, if a company is outstanding, we also have a responsibility to our co-riders to spread the word.
In the Internet area, this is a very powerfull tool, which many companies underestimate. One bad review weights out 100 good ones and if you search, you will find it.
Having said that, it also puts pressure on us as consumers and reviewers. Giving a bad review is not a game, it has impact that can be translated into money-loss for the company.
Coming back to Spinergy. If you search the web, you find many really good reviews about their product but you also find some bad ones. About products that where on the market before they where tested adequately or lacking support. That’s what I see as a consumer and that’s what I will base my decision on. Spinergy might have come long ways but I will take a while before they erase all their baggage.
Again, I don’t want to put more fuel in the Spinergy-fire, because I haven’t tested any of their products lately (I did 10 y ago). It’s just an example, the same is true for HP, Dell, Cervelo or Toyota.
agret,
I agree. Spinergy once had their share of problems. But, as we’ve acknowledged with a number of victims of the Internet culture (some deservedly so) Spinergy has learned from their lessons.
The new Spinergy Tilium Carbon and Tilium Carbon SS wheels feature greatly improved hubs, a version with the unique PBO spokes and very good rims. I doubt you will find negative commentary about these wheels. They have been a solid performance alternative at a lower price point.
Almost every long-standing company in the industry has had its products that were less than perfect. The mark of a good company is if they can make improvements and move on. That is what Spinergy has done, and their new product is very nice.
Just figured I’d throw my two cents in.
I view the web as “better than nothing” when in comes to information. A lot of times, I have no other source of information about a product, and in that case, I use the web cause I gots no choice. When I find a more trustworthy source- like, say, Tom D- I generally go with it. YMMV.
I sort of agree to all of the above replies. Spinergy is just an example anyhow, as mentioned.
Take a look at Ebay for example. Why does it work? Because of the rating system. Yes, there are frauds. Yes there are ungrounded pad gradings. But it does work surprisingly well.
If I go to the local Shop and get bad service. All I can do is tell it others around me but the impact of this is pretty slim. On the web however, the word spreads extremly fast. Take Ebay again, if a guy has 99 positive and 1 negative grade, which one do you go and look at? But I would buy from that 99% guy. I wouldn’t from a 90%.
Pretty valid statement with a slight flaw. Say the seller has sold 10 items…nine of which were litespeed blades…all customers were satisfied and prices were reasonable…but the one knock to their rating comes from selling headset spacers that somehow got lost in transit (as smaller things sometimes do). A potential 100% rating messed up by poor postal delivery. Now this person has another blade for sale…and you won’t but it because they have a 90% rating. One has to look at the bigger picture to get the right perspective. A totally overblown scenario but one that could happen.
One thing not touched on here is that the 404 rim is not the same as other rims of similar depth. The wind-tunnel gurus (Cobb, etc.) have spoken on this matter, and the curved sidewall of the Zipp rim is said to be superior to all other deep rims. Cobb has recently even said he thinks the 404 is faster than the Hed3 (which was his favored front wheel for years).
Since Zipp holds the patent on the shape (actually, shared with Hed), the other companies can’t make the same rim (eg, Reynolds, Corima, Spinergy, etc.).
Is it really true? I dunno. But, it’s something to think about.
Julian,
agree but Zipp makes the rims for Velomax and American Classics, there is no difference between the 404 rim and the tempest II carbon by Velomax, at least not that I know of.
**Kentiger **.
I agree. But I don’t see that as a flaw. I would never buy something over say 100$ from someone without at least 50 sales (that’s just me), regardless the average rating. Second, nobody with more than 3 or four bad reviews in the last couple month unless they have an incredibly high number of sales, no matter what size of the deal. Something can get lost once or twice, rarely three times in a month.
Then, like I said you don’t really read the good replies but you do read the bad once. So in your example you could go and read about that little thingy that got lost and make up your mind, so no flaw at all, it’s a feature not a bug.
You could even take this further. Sometimes you can make a pretty good picture about someones character just by reading their reply and then re-rate that particular sale.
There are people posting in this forum, I would never reply to or take for serious, just by what I have read in the past. Their character is absolutely incompatible with mine, at least for internet purposes.
Not speaking from any first hand experience here, but I think you are right on track. Zipps are great wheels. Nothing wrong with them, not anymore though, apparently. But from having run some cheap velomax wheels, <200$ circuit comps, I was super impressed. Never trued the wheels. Never had to. Ran Cyclocross with them. The bearings/hubs are sooo smooth. I am in the same process now. I am thinking of going with the AC’s. I can get them slightly cheaper, and sapim cxray spokes are available. THat and picking the hub and spoke color is pretty cool.
On another note, I got a new VELONEWS today. Tyler Hamilton was shown riding his BMC with 303’s in paris-nice. the 303’s had black hubs and spokes. not sure on the spokes, if they were sapim, but the hubs were either something proto from zipp or something else. Interesting.
agree but Zipp makes the rims for Velomax and American Classics, there is no difference between the 404 rim and the tempest II carbon by Velomax, at least not that I know of.
Yes, absolutely. I meant rims made by Zipp, even if assembled by others.
There are people posting in this forum, I would never reply to or take for serious, just by what I have read in the past. Their character is absolutely incompatible with mine, at least for internet purposes.
Not entirely sure how to take this comment…but given the fact that you replied to comments I made I’m guessing I must present a certain degree of character compatibility with you. Glad my previous posts warranted enough merit to make you further the point. Sometimes a common bond can be found with even the most unlikely people.
I’ve read somewhere that Tyler’s wheels are Zipp280 laced to DT240 hubs with DT aerolite spokes …
240’s are the DT’s high end road hubs and Aerolite is the DT’s equivalent of the Sapim’s CXRay used by Zipp for 303’s and 404’s.
Not 100% sure, must verify … bye