I’ll be penning a short article over at Perfect Sanity about this fellow and our allies in the noble country of Afghanistan. Seems even the moderates still don’t get that you can’t go tossing people in the clink just for them downloading or reading something that might be personally offensive. Women’s rights’ must be some sort of insult to Allah, or something, I guess.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/student-facing-twenty-years-in-hell-1643069.html
T.
I am shocked
you mean people in the arab world are even more out of their minds than we are?
this is shocking news
thanks for the update
Well, Afghans aren’t Arab, but if you mean “are people in the Islamic world even more insane than people in the Western world?” well…that’d be a good subject for debate. Because it seems to be the medievalist attitude still teeming throughout the landscape of that country that’s trapped this young man in a kind of cloud cuckoo land of Islamic ideals of perfection and probity.
T.
Heard an NPR report last night about a 79 year old woman being flogged for talking to two men who she was not related to?
I’m sure she had only unpure intentions to merit such punishment.
Generally, in that part of the world, in some (but not nearly all) areas, women must be accompanied by a male relative when out in public, even if the male relative is a 10 year old boy and the woman is a 79 year old great-grandmother. How is it that we, as Western society, still tolerate and accept that sort of behavior, either in our midst or elsewhere in the world?
T.
Well, Afghans aren’t Arab, but if you mean “are people in the Islamic world even more insane than people in the Western world?” well…that’d be a good subject for debate. Because it seems to be the medievalist attitude still teeming throughout the landscape of that country that’s trapped this young man in a kind of cloud cuckoo land of Islamic ideals of perfection and probity.
T.
I’d love to know who would be on that debate. You have two sides that are completely crazy and each is calling the other nuts. It might make a good comedy sketch for SNL.
This reminds me of how some people with mexican heritage get pissed off if you call them latino
and others get pissed off if you call them hispanic
Well, Afghans aren’t Arab,
T.
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I think we’d win that debate. The fatal flaw in our Western thought processes these days is that we’ve somehow convinced ourselves that we don’t have the right to criticize others who may not be “like us.” This is utter nonsense, of course, because the plain fact of the matter is that some cultures and philosophies are clearly superior in terms of mores and morals than others. I’m curious where the justification lies that says anybody who even speaks of the rights of women (and believe me, I’m no feminist) is deserving of the death penalty? Or that a 79 year-old woman should be beaten just because she ventured forth out in public unaccompanied by a male relative?
When we tolerate or even accept that that sort of foolishness has a place in our world, we prove that ennui, boredom and intellectual dilettantism have won out over our once-powerful (though admittedly poorly-executed) desire to make the world a safer place for everybody. I think our problem is that we’re adhering to a kind of quasi-liberal (intellectualist liberalism, not the political mumbo-jumbo we see in the media all day) “don’t cast the first stone” mentality these past few decades. And now we see what it gets us.
T.
Oh yes Afghanistan the vortex into the 12th century. It also has sucked in many empires for a long strange trip and then spits you out.
What you need to concern yourself with is the the Islamic (Shira) vortex has reversing capabilities and is opening portals in other parts of the world as we speak.In the U.K. there are pockets of the system of Shira law are alive and well upholding honor killings ,stoning,arranged marriage etc.
What to do? well its like stepping in dog dodo with vibram soles.You have a few options 1.ignore it and blame the smell on someone else 2.walk around long enough and it will fall out 3.get a garden hose and wash it off.
I think we’d win that debate. The fatal flaw in our Western thought processes these days is that we’ve somehow convinced ourselves that we don’t have the right to criticize others who may not be “like us.” This is utter nonsense, of course, because the plain fact of the matter is that some cultures and philosophies are clearly superior in terms of mores and morals than others. I’m curious where the justification lies that says anybody who even speaks of the rights of women (and believe me, I’m no feminist) is deserving of the death penalty? Or that a 79 year-old woman should be beaten just because she ventured forth out in public unaccompanied by a male relative?
When we tolerate or even accept that that sort of foolishness has a place in our world, we prove that ennui, boredom and intellectual dilettantism have won out over our once-powerful (though admittedly poorly-executed) desire to make the world a safer place for everybody. I think our problem is that we’re adhering to a kind of quasi-liberal (intellectualist liberalism, not the political mumbo-jumbo we see in the media all day) “don’t cast the first stone” mentality these past few decades. And now we see what it gets us.
T.
This sounds like a case for G-L-O-R-I-A Allred.Seriously its is sad to see women and men in that region or any other part of the world that are denied even the simplest basic freedoms.
Who is the “we” you are talking about? Is it mainstream Christianity? Is is the Agnostics? Is it the Atheists? Who would you choose to represent “us” and why?
I think we’d win that debate.
Depends on who was judging. There are plenty who’d argue with just as much self-appointed moral superiority that Western culture is a cancer that should be wiped from the face of the earth.
Don’t get me wrong. I believe in absolutes, and would love to see a major push for world-wide adoption of the Vienna Declaration.
But how to promote it or enforce it? I don’t know. Good luck convincing China to do anything, much less Afghanistan. The “Team America World Police” attempt by G.W. didn’t go over real well. I think it’s going to have to be a slow grass roots kind of thing, otherwise it’d be rejected as Western Imperialism. It certainly can’t turn into an anti-Islam movement, which go look at a history book to see how that approach has worked. Maybe give everyone in Afghanistan an iPhone , invite them to be our Facebook friends, and let cultural Darwinism take over.
Yes, I’m kidding.
How is it that we, as Western society, still tolerate and accept that sort of behavior, either in our midst or elsewhere in the world?\
It’s one thing to set the standards for our country, but to be so arrogant to think that we should run everyone’s lives around the world, is what has gotten us into much of the mess we are in today with the countries that are not exactly friendly anymore…It was not that long ago that we treated our women pretty much the same, the blacks even worse. What if someone invaded us back then(given they had the power to do so), and forced us to live like they do??? WOmens rights are a big issue, but the ones we are ignoring in many parts of Africa(genocide for example), are much higher on the list of bad things happening to people that we do not seem to care about as a country…You single out a 79 year old grandma that got killed, guess what, grandmas are getting killed everyday here in gangland…Maybe England should invade us becuase we are so backward, that we all think we have to carry our own guns to be safe. 15 year old punks can buy a gun on any corner, 18 year old ones can just get them at the corner Big 5. ANd then they go kill grandmas, along with little kids, and everyone inbetween…WHo is more civilized, I’m not sure I can answer that question…
It’s one thing to set the standards for our country, but to be so arrogant to think that we should run everyone’s lives around the world, is what has gotten us into much of the mess we are in today with the countries that are not exactly friendly anymore…It was not that long ago that we treated our women pretty much the same, the blacks even worse. What if someone invaded us back then(given they had the power to do so), and forced us to live like they do??? WOmens rights are a big issue, but the ones we are ignoring in many parts of Africa(genocide for example), are much higher on the list of bad things happening to people that we do not seem to care about as a country…You single out a 79 year old grandma that got killed, guess what, grandmas are getting killed everyday here in gangland…Maybe England should invade us becuase we are so backward, that we all think we have to carry our own guns to be safe. 15 year old punks can buy a gun on any corner, 18 year old ones can just get them at the corner Big 5. ANd then they go kill grandmas, along with little kids, and everyone inbetween…WHo is more civilized, I’m not sure I can answer that question…
While there are undoubtedly some gray areas in the human rights debate women being flogged for walking without an escort, or killed for the sake of their ‘honor’ should not be considered acceptable by any modern society.
The fact that you say we used to treat women and blacks the same way in America if anything shows that we have progressed more as a society in 150 years than some countries have in 1000 years.
Your example of a 15 year old being able to buy a gun on the street corner isn’t a good comparison because that is a crime and would be punishable by law, not upheld (or overlooked) by the courts.
Just because there are equally bad things happening in Africa (which should also be a concern of ‘civilised’ countries) doesn’t mean we should overlook human rights in other areas.
No one can say that Western society is perfect, far from it. As long as humans are humans there will never be a perfect society but clearly some are less civilised than others.
“While there are undoubtedly some gray areas in the human rights debate women being flogged for walking without an escort, or killed for the sake of their ‘honor’ should not be considered acceptable by any modern society.”
Not for nothing, but we are one of the few countries that still executes their citizens through the legal system, and one of the very few that allows execution of minors. We’re not talking about “gray areas.” We’re talking about fundamental human rights issues in which two separate societies view the fundamentals in entirely differnt ways.
We never treated women the same way some Muslim countries do, because we never felt the same way about women and their honor as some Muslim countries do. From the perspective of some Muslims, the honor of a woman is more important even than their lives. If we are comfortable making a moral judgement that they are wrong, that’s fine, but we need to be prepared to deal with the consequences of that judgement, and we need to understand that no amount of selling them Coke and Levi’s, or sending in troops, or leveraging political or diplomatic power is going to change that fundamental point of view. We also need to acknowledge that we are leaving ourselves open to the same kind of moral judgement from other societies, and we need to understand that we can only enforce our views so long as we are strong enough to do so, after which, someone else is undoubtedly going to start enforcing their morals on us.
I read this entire thread and what I feel is missing is kudos to the guy for his courage to risk his life, seeking something other than what he was obliged to believe.
Not for nothing, but we are one of the few countries that still executes their citizens through the legal system, and one of the very few that allows execution of minors. We’re not talking about “gray areas.” We’re talking about fundamental human rights issues in which two separate societies view the fundamentals in entirely differnt ways.
We never treated women the same way some Muslim countries do, because we never felt the same way about women and their honor as some Muslim countries do. From the perspective of some Muslims, the honor of a woman is more important even than their lives. If we are comfortable making a moral judgement that they are wrong, that’s fine, but we need to be prepared to deal with the consequences of that judgement, and we need to understand that no amount of selling them Coke and Levi’s, or sending in troops, or leveraging political or diplomatic power is going to change that fundamental point of view. We also need to acknowledge that we are leaving ourselves open to the same kind of moral judgement from other societies, and we need to understand that we can only enforce our views so long as we are strong enough to do so, after which, someone else is undoubtedly going to start enforcing their morals on us.
**I never said that we should enforce our morals on them. The last few years have shown (for those who didn’t already know) that you cannot force change upon a people, that only causes them to dig in deeper. The only way they can change is to want to change and do it from within their own society. More than likely this will not happen any time soon. **
For the record, I am comfortable making a moral judgement about killing someone for their ‘honor’s’ sake.
“I never said that we should enforce our morals on them.”
I’m not sure how you reconcile this statement with this other statement from your previous post: “women being flogged for walking without an escort, or killed for the sake of their ‘honor’ should not be considered acceptable by any modern society.” Unless you’re saying that it shouldn’t be considered acceptable, but you don’t think we should do anything about it.
“For the record, I am comfortable making a moral judgement about killing someone for their ‘honor’s’ sake.”
And, no doubt, many on the other side are comfortable making moral judgements about our lack of respect for women that allows us to let them flash their junk (Britney Spears), post sex videos on the internet (Paris Hilton), and debase themselves in numerous ways and actually get richer and more famous for it.
I’m not sure how you reconcile this statement with this other statement from your previous post: “women being flogged for walking without an escort, or killed for the sake of their ‘honor’ should not be considered acceptable by any modern society.” Unless you’re saying that it shouldn’t be considered acceptable, but you don’t think we should do anything about it.
It’s pretty simple actually. To me enforce implies that we are compelling them to do things our way. I think the only way to enlighten them on some issues is through education. Unfortunately when a culture has done things a certain way for centuries they tend to resist change and see it as a threat so it may never happen. Unfortunate for the many who will be killed and tortured in the mean time.
I think we’d win that debate. The fatal flaw in our Western thought processes these days is that we’ve somehow convinced ourselves that we don’t have the right to criticize others who may not be “like us.” This is utter nonsense, of course, because the plain fact of the matter is that some cultures and philosophies are clearly superior in terms of mores and morals than others. I’m curious where the justification lies that says anybody who even speaks of the rights of women (and believe me, I’m no feminist) is deserving of the death penalty? Or that a 79 year-old woman should be beaten just because she ventured forth out in public unaccompanied by a male relative?
When we tolerate or even accept that that sort of foolishness has a place in our world, we prove that ennui, boredom and intellectual dilettantism have won out over our once-powerful (though admittedly poorly-executed) desire to make the world a safer place for everybody. I think our problem is that we’re adhering to a kind of quasi-liberal (intellectualist liberalism, not the political mumbo-jumbo we see in the media all day) “don’t cast the first stone” mentality these past few decades. And now we see what it gets us.
T.
ennui and dilitantism in the same sentence…that might be too much Roget’s Thesaurusan for one phrase. Like putting powdered suger on your pancakes when you have already slathered whip cream and syrup on them.
Still I cannot argue with your stance. Old school intellectuals were not afraid to take stands. (Burke while loudly denouncing the French Revolution–wasn’t afraid to write about the illigitamcy of England’s imperialism in India and America for instance). We shouldn’t either–our way isn’t perfect–but to suggest we cannot stand up and be outraged at these acts abroad based on our own imperfections is toooooo much relativism for me.