Your Honor, I blame PCs

(The following is an imaginary trial brought by the DA in Slowtonvilleburg, USA. Names have been changed to protect…well, nobody. Any similarities between the imaginary trial participants and real people are meant to be close to what the imaginary people may have said, had this not been an imaginary trial.)

The DA’s opening statement: "Your Honor, the Court knows that in Slowtonvilleburg, all things that increase ones speed on a bicycle, or while running, are ruled unlawful and disgusting. Riding a P3 is punishable by a mandatory 5 year prison sentence, riding with a wind at ones back is similarly punished. Even owning a disc wheel is a felony. My office intends to show that Dr. Freak Night, and his heinous invention known as PCs, are responsible for increasing YukkiCarbone’s speed in triathlons, as well as duathlons. Exibit A is a gold-colored crank system. Exibit B is a chart of all of YukkiCarbone’s race results from the last two years, and Yukki’s first three races of this year. Note that while Yukki did improve somewhat from the first year to the second, he never finished near the podium, with the exception of his very first Novice race, where he placed third.

Your Honor, notice how he placed 4th, with a 10 minute faster time than last year on the same course, in his first race this year. Then he had the fastest run split in his AG and place second in a Duathlon (with an increase in average bike speed of THREE mph over last year on the same course). And, finally, in his first 1/2 ironman, Yukki finished Fourth in his AG with the 3rd fastest run split in the AG, 39th fastest run split overall.

It’s obvious that this former front-of-the-middle-of-the-packer, Yukki, has done SOMETHING that has caused him to break the very moral fibre core of Slowtonvilleburg…SOMETHING has caused Yukki to race with a measureably vulgar increase in SPEED! YES, Yukki is guilty of one of the highest crimes in our courts. And our office knows what has caused Yukki to sink to such a pitiful state, because we have his training records over the past three years…label these Exibit C. Note that the only change has been his addiction to using PCs since late December. He hasn’t even run very much at all…Decreasing running mileage is encouraged in Slowtonvilleburg because it usually results in the preferred result…slowness in the run. So, although Yukki seemed to be doing the right thing to decrease run speed, he was just trying to divert your attention. DON’T be fooled, your Honor. All of his normal biking was done with the PCs invented by Dr. Freak Night. Look at the training times, distances, and total mileage on the bike. Nothing else changed from year to year, except the evil addition of PC riding. Yukki has a wanton and willful speed problem, evidenced by his use of PCs, and he must be punished to the fullest extent our courts will allow."

Yukki’s defense Attorney, Not a PCinger, gives his opening statement: “Your Honor, everyone here in this community hates speed increases. Yukki and I are members of high standing in the community, and we hate increases in speed as much as the next person. If it please the Court, mark this item I hold in my hand as Defense exhibit Z. (Not a PCinger dramatically hoists a telephone-book-like thick folder in the air…straining to show it is extremely heavy.) In this massive collection, I have every double-blind, peer-reviewed, flawlessly executed study which prove PCs to be the cause of a morally repugnant increase in speed on the bike, and/or run.” He drops it to the floor with a thud that makes the water glasses on the tables clink. The courtroom spectators gasp in horror at the volume of paper in Exhibit Z. (An elderly lady begins to weep quietly, because Yukki must be guilty of knowingly using something proven beyond all doubt to result in increases in speed in so many studies…the HORROR of it all!)

Not a PCinger continued: “Yukki would know of at least some of these study results, (although not all of the studies…because he certainly isn’t as exquisitely as educated as I am) that show beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt, that PCs would result in a felonious increase in speed. And, if this is the case, Yukki SHOULD be sentenced to the maximum punishment for his wanton and purposeful pursuit (no pun intended) of speed.”

Then, Not a PCinger walked back to the defense table, leaving the mound of papers on the floor. It seemed Yukki’s own defense attorney had abandoned him, had set him up as guilty of this heinous crime. The courtroom was stunned! What was Not a PCinger doing! This has to be malpractice in the worst way.

The Judge asked the bailiff to bring Defense Exibit Z to the bench. As the bailiff lifted the mound…all the papers fell out on the floor. But, the entire courtroom burst into laughter as it became clear that there were no words printed on any paper. No such study had ever been published. Not a PCinger was brilliant! Yukki would be exonerated…there was NO evidence that the gold-colored devices were anything other than a novelty, not some speed-increasing, diabolically evil devil-toy. Yukki’s increases in racing speeds must be due to something else…but what could it be?

No matter, that would have to be a different lawsuit. The DA withdrew the suit due to lack of credible evidence. It was now a lawsuit that the DA would never be able to prosecute, because, try as he might, the DA couldn’t find anything else that Yukki had done differently. It had to be the PCs, it just had to be. The DA knew it, but he simply couldn’t find a study to prove it.

Update, Years later: The DA retired and became a vacuum cleaner salesman. At least it was an honest profession, there is so much dirt in the world that needs to be removed. Not a PCinger went on to live somewhere in academia-land and was never heard from again…because he knew in his heart that he’d successfully defended a felon, although he’d never admit it to anyone…in fact, he couldn’t bring himself to admit it even to himself, except on dark nights when some dank theory would bite the dust and be replaced by a better theory. Dr. Freak Night left the country and went to places that weren’t so conservative in their views on speed. Yukki began actually winning some of his races, but kept his PC habit hidden or disguised, so nobody would know what he was doing…because although Yukki knew that speed increases were morally wrong, Yukki had experienced the taste of evil speed, and he liked it.

I totally respect your opinion, and you present it professionally and without attempts to denigrate. I realize you may be right, it ACTUALLY could be something else…I just don’t know what that “something else” is. Perhaps my middle-aged body is just slow coming around to peaking, and it took this long for the better results to happen.

BTW, do you want me to go back and work you into the defense team in the story? :wink:

You said that a good study would perhaps have a chance of convincing you that PCs do something to increase speed. You also say you haven’t tried them. If you were to try them and see a speed increase, would you still need good scientific studies to convince you that they help? I think you will answer just as I would…a good study would be required to prove that PCs work in the overall population of racers. Whether or not they help one individual is another question that is more easily assessed.

Certainly, they could help one individual and not any other. In that case, it might even be some psychologically facilitated characteristic stimulated by
changing the person’s normal workout regimen, resulting in an improvement. It’s not too far-fetched to be possible. Furthermore, just because I’ve seen an improvement that coincides with my use of PCs, it proves nothing about the effect that would be seen (if any) in the general population. All that being true, you will not find me agreeing to remove them from my training regimen. And, I may be racing on them sometime this year…especially in a hilly race…I have some testing to do first to determine when (and if) this is right for me.

I learn a lot from the studies you’ve shared in the past…it’s contributions from people like you that make this forum genuinely useful. Thanks!

ah yes. i agree with yaqui that mr willet’s position and voice is well reasoned. however, there is precedent, i think, for a differing view as well. take swimming - i have never read a scientific report on the benefits of swimming with a long boat, body roll, balanced position. but i can try them out, and feel the difference and decide for myself. the same is true in any sport i can think of, say xc-skate skiing.most start this sport with a edged flayed out stance and must stop, slow down, and relearn an counter-intuitive side to side balance approach if they are going to progress. i believe the biggest difference of perspective most have toward the PC’s is whether or not they have triied them and spent time on them. if you do, like swimming, you will know the difference. like swimming, once experienced there is no further need for perr-reviewed review - simply put a person can tell the difference once experienced.

i am not saying people can’t fool themselves - i know better than that. but - it is also true that once a person can swim while balanced they don’t go back to splashing like a barge. once a person can xc skate ski with the non-instinctual flat balanced ski he will not go back to the previous instinctual style. once a person pedals PC style he will endeavor to invoke it, i believe. and, i stongly believe you cannot know what it is like to swim with roll and balnce unless you get wet. you cannot know what it is alike to feel a flat running well driven ski under you unless you get cold. and you cannot know what it is or is not that PC’s can do for you unless you cry with pain from your hip flexors dying a thousand deaths under your incredulous nose. one man’s opinion.

oh yeah, i forgot - i also find the issues of cost/benefit and the age old " you would have gotten better anyway" arguments to be good ones.

to the former - indeed the oft cited alternatives such as vacation time for equivalent money off from work to train, coaching, and the ubiquitous aero wheelset choices are the obvious choices. i would add taking a quarter of the $ and entering the local crit series so you learn how to go 'round corners without putting the brakes on all the time (!!). anyway, these sort of arguments can make for endless campfirelike debate. but, they are limited and individual in scope. one guy might be single and off work so he can employ coaching more fully than a guy woking a demanding unpredicatable job with busy home life and a house. as for the time off riding thing again one guy might be living on the blue ridge parkway and able to ride high quality rides out his door and the next guy stuck in downtown wherever where he has to drive an hour to find a road. thus, even if we had data on cost benefit it would not be universally true across any meaningful scope.

as to the " gotten better anyway" idea, see above. i think yaqui can tell the difference, just as anybody can tell whether or not rolling sid eto side and being balanced in the pool is working, or if it the time in the pool that doing it. once experienced the difference between the two is unmistakble, i think.

the aero wheel analogy often comes up, due to the two devices price similarity - to me it is a kind of apples and oranges comparison, but i personally would rank all of the above ( coaching , racing on the road, time away in the blue ridge montains, or PC’s) as more beneficial than wheels. and yet any tri-head worth his yankz has a set of h3’s or 4040’s on his trusty steed, redaty to deliver that crucial 1 1/2 -2 minute over 40 K. given that, it could well be said " what in the he&% do you know, t-t-n ?!?!" answer, i don’t know anything, other than i like to ride to ride my PC’s and i have leg muscles that make the pedals go round in places i didn’t before i got them - i would like to go ride in the blue ridge mountains for a week with a coach - and when i get within two minutes per 40 K of winning something of merit i’ll buy some wheels to put me over the top. till then i will get some more wood for the campfire.

Congratulations on your improvement. And what a great way to describe it. I think it should be undisputed that PC’s do something different for the user than regular cranks, to put it simply. Whether it’s building muscles that make you more efficient or whether its just something different that inspires training. Whatever it is it seems to have worked for you. Please continue the updates. If I had extra bones to purchase them I probably would give them a try. In fact I probably will try them in the future.

Count me among the unconvinced, as per the previous discussions that took way too much time :^). But I would like to add to what Kraig has said re: improvements in three years.

I started messing around in tri’s and bike racing in 2001. After about 3 months of training on a stationary bike, I bought my first nice road bike. My first all-out 15 mile effort came in at 16.8 MPH. After conferring with some roadie friends (all of whom were ex-pro’s), I spent the season improving my form and technique. By the end of the season, I’d raised my max 15 mile effort to 18.2 MPH.

The next season, I continued my training as before. I was training for IM-USA, and again, mostly focused on form with some LT work. My max 15 mile effort in the 2002 season was 21 mph.

This year, with more LT work and the addition of 1 interval workout a week, my max 15 mile effort so far is 22.3 MPH. (Note: all rides done on same course under similar conditions. Bike setup was the same).

Here is my point: Those are reasonable improvements over 3 years, especially given the minimal time I have for training (7 hours/week TOTAL). They are also in line with what powercranks are claimed to do. But I did not require any special 700 dollar cranks to realize them. (I have never been anything other than a mediocre (at best!) athlete, so it is not like I am some kind of bike monster hanging out in a less than stellar body).

I would definitely feel better about power cranks with a peer reviewed article, but in fairness, Frank has no reason to fund a study. He is presumably selling them briskly, and why would he risk DISPROVING his product, knowing that all the anti-PC’ers would broadcast that info from hell to breakfast. Furter, a positive result probably would not increase his business very much…I mean, athletes ingest all kinds of herbal concoctions/new and exciting sport potions and whatnot, many of which have never been demonstrated to do anything.

Hey, it is your money and you should use it for what works for you! I’m just saying…

Phil

Phil,

Two points, 1. I risk “disproving” the product everyday by giving a 60 day moneyback guarantee (I have even extended it for some who have had trouble adapting in that period). Seems better for the customer for me to risk my money that way than to fund some study that would still be open to criticism (as every study has faults) and and not give a “try them risk free” guarantee. 2. It is true that everyone can get better though additonal hard work and enough time, the question is by how much and how fast? I don’t know where this three year stuff came from but it seems to me that yaqui is reporting improvement that occurred over 3 months or so, not three years. Such improvements in someone who has a good base are pretty hard to come by without a big change in training habit. If he didn’t change the time and effort he was doing, how is the improvement explained?

So the forum can come to their own conclusions on anecdotal evidence, here are yaquicarbo’s results from the last three Memphis in May Triathlon:

        2000           2001         2002  

Swim 23:40 26:05 23:01
Bike 1:00:03 59:59 59:00
Run 40:44 39:14 37:15

Very talented,improving(almost exponentially in three years) and should finish in the top three in the 30-34 age group in the 2003 MIM Tri on 5/18/03. Check out his improvement next week. Draw your own conclusions, then.

Bob Sigerson

sig, that’s not me you’re referring to if you were meaning to do that. I’ve never even been to Memphis. Are these your times?

on the issue of philbert and yaquicarbo both getting better:

  1. it could indeed be that yaqicarbo would have gotten just as good on his own sans PC’s - nobody can say.

  2. it could be that had philbert used PC’s he would have gotten better still - again nobody can say.

however, yaquicarbo has ridden without and ridden with - something philbert has not done. finally, if yaqicarbo were talking about TI based swimming would we be questioning his ability to distinguish between Ti swimming technique and simply more workouts ? i believe most any person paying attention can tell the difference between training effect and a decidely different technique, by and large. the caveat is having triied them both for frame of reference, IMHO. not to diss philbert, his position is reasonable one. still, the thing that i believe he is missing is the frame of reference on just how DIFFERENT PC riding from regular riding - they look about the same, but feel and affect a rider drastically differently. it is in this difference where , i believe, yaqucarbo gains the perspective to give the lion’s share of credit to the PC’s. put more simply - " if you try them you can feel the difference". sorry to have no further insight, but that is what i think based on a little over 10 months riding them.

on the issue of philbert and yaquicarbo both getting better:

  1. it could indeed be that yaqicarbo would have gotten just as good on his own sans PC’s - nobody can say.

  2. it could be that had philbert used PC’s he would have gotten better still - again nobody can say.
    I’ll chime in with my $0.02-worth. I have been riding PC’s now for a week, so I am absolutely NOT qualified to comment on their benefit other than to agree that riding them is not at all like riding regular cranks. They are very humbling, frustrating, painful devices in the early stages of adaptation. I will share my perspective on why I decided to buy them. My background and experience is significantly different from most other PC users on this forum. I don’t have several years of tri experience- this is my second season. I’ve only done 3 races thus far, with WF long course being my most recent and longest. I’m now training for my first IM- Vineman at the end of August, and plan to do many more IM’s in the future. I am by not fast by any person’s definition of the term, and I certainly acknowledge that I could and would show significant gains in performance simply by putting in the time, so to speak, without fancy training aids like PC’s. However, I don’t think that PC’s are the exclusive domain of those that have plateaued or could otherwise not achieve any further advances in performance without a tool like PC’s. I view them as a way to train smarter rather than harder. I don’t have 30 hours per week to train, so if I can ride PC’s and realize gains incremental to those that I would normally see simply with training 15-20 hours per week, that gravy. Will I be able to look back 2-3 years from now and claim that all my progress was exclusively a result of PC’s? Certainly not. Do I feel confident that I will be further along in my development goals having ridden PC’s for 2-3 years than not? Absolutely. Therefore, I think that for most people attempting to isolate and quantify the component of their improvement specific to PC use is both pointless and potentially misleading because PC’s will have a proportionately different amount of impact on each individual depending on their current level of fitness. I don’t know of anyone that has reached 100% of their potential and could make the claim that were it not for PC’s they could not have realized any further performance gains. In my mind PC’s are no different (no more or less effective) than a coach, a computrainer, swim lessons, or an HRM. These are all means of achieving progress faster and more intelligently than simply grinding out tons of miles without proper form and guidance. I’m sure there are many successful triathletes that have never used any of these devices. I’m also sure that I can get as fast as most of these people in half the time using these tools.

Oh my god, Yaqui. You better have written this post while on one of your rest days. I have been reading triathlon forum posts for the past two years and I think this one was most ingenious of all. You had to have spent many hours gathering your thoughts to convey your short story. Now if you were out there training on those gold felonous tools, instead of becoming and aspiring author, you might have podium finished instead of finishing 4th.

I very much enjoyed your short story. I too, soon will be falling on the dark side, seeking speed increases while utilizing those criminal devices known only as PC’s.

Seeking to be a shameless evil speed increase doer.

I have heard that Leipheimer was now using PC’s as well as other pros.

I’d be interested to know how they use them ? I somehow doubt that these guys use them all the time. Plus they are racing so often during a year (and I guess not using PCs for the races), so I wonder if the benefits of PCs are as good for them ?

Maybe Frank can give some more information on this ? How do they view the benefits of PCs ?

Dino-man, you hit the nail on the head. It was “rest and recover” time for me this week…too much time on my hands since I wasn’t out training much! Idle hands are the devil’s workshop…

Good luck in your pursuit of evil speed.

Another thing while I’m still resting. I think it was jkatsoudas that wrote PCs are no better or worse than a good coach. I think he makes a good point here. The biggest difference is that you might be able to fool yourself, or a coach, if you get a little lazy. PCs monitor each and every pedal stroke…they NEVER let you cheat…not even a tiny bit. Unrelenting beasts, those PCs.

Last thing…when I felt I might be losing a bit of quad strength during my initial adaptation phase (and I’ve still got a long way to go to get to full adaptation), it was only in my vastus medialus…right next to my knee…the upper and middle quads seemed to be getting plenty of work. I think if you do some very hard, low rpm work on PCs, you will stimulate this area of the quads…if you are worried about hurting your knees at very low rpms…maybe you could ride your regular cranks for a short, but very intense, interval workout once a week…ideally, I’d like to have two bikes set up for this…ride the PC’ed one to warm up and cool down, and only ride the fixed cranks during the interval sets.

Keep in mind I’m just making this suggestion up based upon what I’m guessing would work best for me. At the time I started out, I just kept riding the PCs 100% until my hip flexors progressed to the point that I could start to really load up the vastus medialus…and they responded nicely. But at this later time in the season, maybe the 100% PC riding approach could be tweaked some to preserve that muscle until your adaptation comes along a bit more.

Nobody that I’ve heard has eclipsed ttn’s epic 100 mile journey in the first week on PCs. What an effort!

You are right, they are not using them all the time, at least during the season. Leipheimer just received his and I think his first ride will be this weekend. He told me he would give me some feedback after he had some time on them. The tough thing for someone at that level is to figure out what should be done to get the best benefit for the kind of racing they do in the time available.

What I told Levi was I thought that, to get the best benefit for the upcoming TDF, he should concentrate on trying to get a couple of hours base endurance on them then concentrate on either improving his TT or mountain climbing. Of course, once he had some time on them, to see how his adaptation was going, some more specific advice could be given. Do any of you PC’ers out there have any other bright ideas as to advice for folks like this 6 weeks before the biggest race in the world?

From the others at that level who use them, I haven’t received any direct feedback so i am not sure exactly how they view them or see them, other than I know they like them and use them. The best “proof” I have of that is they are now contacting me and asking about using them, it is not something that I am pushing on them. Either way, I suspect there is some variation in how these folks have approached and used them and I suspect none of them have or do use them as I currently recommend for ordinary mortals.

YC, those are nice times. You should have claimed them or at least remained silent.

Mr. Mike, I didn’t want to muddy the water (good image regarding Memphis?), the real story is good enough…