Yet another Q about computrainer vs powermeters

ok, lemme throw this one, though the subject has been milked dry…

this post has two separate questions:

Q #1:
who: grad student on a budget (living on RA stipend…) and amateur triathlete
what1: cannot decide b/e a powermeter and a computrainer
what2: needs to dramatically improve on the bike during the comming off season and needs to see and interpret the numbers (wattage, torque, speed, cadence, HR and how all these are factored in, given age, gender and weight)

– frank day’s post about ergvideo is pretty tempting, according to what users have reported about their wattage output improvement (eg: 180W->300+W). see here for facts: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2428542;search_string=computrainer;#2428542

– cycleOps looks pretty cool as well (http://www.saris.com/c-11-power-meters.aspx?skinid=2), but $$$. rappstar: any thought from your side as a user?

Q#2:

  • if i know my cadence, my speed, my HR, the length of the pedal lever, a guesstimate of the force i apply on the pedal, can i deduce how much power i output? there should be some sort of equation of the kind. please, enlighten me.

pm me if you have ny questions.
thanks a zillion!
A.K

Between the two, I would definitely get a power meter. You can use the power meter on the trainer as well. So, you would get your power info both on the road and on the trainer.

I have an SRM and a PowerTap. I like the SRM better b/c I do not have to worry about wheels, it is bullet proof, gold standard, etc. That said, I picked up a wireless PT off the classified here on ST and it works great. Fantastic for training. Very nice stuff.

Another potential option, if you want a decent option, but, you have limited funds right now - why not consider a Kurt Kinetic trainer w/ power computer? I believe it “estimates” wattage, but, I have heard it works well. I have the Kurt Kinetic trainer (no power option) and I like it a lot. I have not used the power computer, but, I have read a couple reviews saying it is decent.

http://www.kurtkinetic.com/power-computers-c-22-l-en.html

I have an SRM and a PowerTap. I like the SRM better b/c I do not have to worry about wheels, it is bullet proof, gold standard, etc. That said, I picked up a wireless PT off the classified here on ST and it works great. Fantastic for training. Very nice stuff.

thanks jsa! i’ll check those two out. what do you mean by ‘don’t have to worry about the wheels’? also, i do have a kurt kinetic road machine, so i might first check out the power meter you referred to. it’s pretty convenient to have this latter both on and off the trainer!

I have an SRM and a PowerTap.

what do you mean by ‘don’t have to worry about the wheels’?

SRM is a crank. You can use any wheels set with it… cheap training wheels and bling’d race day wheels and still have power.

Powertap is the hub of a wheel. If you build it with a cheap training rim, you can’t have power on a race wheel, or would have to buy another PT to build into your race wheels. Or build a race wheel on the PT hub, then train without power on cheap wheels, or train with power on your race wheel.

SRM and Powertap will tell you your power output, inside, outside, in a race… But on the trainer, you must decide how much power/effort you will be putting out.
With a Computrainer, you (or a computer program) can set it at X watts, and you will have to pedal that hard, or you will stop. EG if you are putting out less than X watts, RPM slows down, yet resistance goes up (staying at X watts of effort). So, if you plan on extended trainer time, the Computrainer will “make you” do whatever workout you program it to do. If you program in a 2x20 @ 200w interval workout, that is what you will do… You can’t get lazy and do 18min @ 180w and 15min at 140w.

Personally, I went the SRM route.
YMMV, Joe.

Computrainer is a training tool which lets you load certain amaount of watts to the wheel and no matter what the cadence/gearing is you’ll ride at that watts. You can program it to do workouts, intervals etc.
Powermeter is an instrument which measures your watts (power)

Unfortunately 90% of the people use Computrainer wrong. They hook it up to a TV and ride the courses. It excels in the erg mode.

ok, lemme throw this one, though the subject has been milked dry…

this post has two separate questions:

Q #1:
who: grad student on a budget (living on RA stipend…) and amateur triathlete
what1: cannot decide b/e a powermeter and a computrainer
what2: needs to dramatically improve on the bike during the comming off season and needs to see and interpret the numbers (wattage, torque, speed, cadence, HR and how all these are factored in, given age, gender and weight)

– frank day’s post about ergvideo is pretty tempting, according to what users have reported about their wattage output improvement (eg: 180W->300+W). see here for facts: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...omputrainer;#2428542

– cycleOps looks pretty cool as well (http://www.saris.com/...ters.aspx?skinid=2), but $$$. rappstar: any thought from your side as a user?

Q#2:

  • if i know my cadence, my speed, my HR, the length of the pedal lever, a guesstimate of the force i apply on the pedal, can i deduce how much power i output? there should be some sort of equation of the kind. please, enlighten me.

pm me if you have ny questions.
thanks a zillion!
A.K

  1. A power meter is a far more versatile option. If you do substantial indoor work, get a good trainer (e.g. a KK) and a big fan and you’ll be fine.

  2. Yes, here it is:

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd226/ASimmons/MathModelofCycling.png

BTW - of all the above measures mentioned, watts and speed are the only ones that matter.

powermeter for sure. I have both, (PM this year) CT since 2005. PM is much more versatile and will help you. If you go the PM route get the endurance nation podcasts and WKO/cycling peaks. You’ll be happy you did

Nobody else would suggest this, so here goes. Have you looked at the Kurt Kinetic Power Computer? If you already have a good fluid trainer, you can do repeatable, “power-based” training on that. In fact, you can use their formula for calculating the power curve on your own if you want. Not accurate, but repeatable results…

Now if you don’t already have either a Cycleops or KK fluid trainer, you might as well eBay an old powertap.

http://www.kurtkinetic.com/calibration_chart.php

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1433050;search_string=remnfa%20kinetic;#1433050

My opinion:

Quarq CinQo + trainer.

It’s a crank based PM like SRM. As accurate, but much less expensive. For a head unit, if the Garmin 705 seems a bit expensive, just wait a bit. I know of at least 4 different alternative ANT+ head units that are soon to be released.

Trying to estimate power output on a trainer without some form of power measurement is fraught with error. You might get close at times, but just variations in roller pressure, temperature, etc. can cause significant variations in the actual load. Also, having the ability to take your power measurement outside is a huge plus for a mobile power meter. Save the Computrainer purchase for the future if you think you’d like it.

Just my 2 centavos…

So, if you plan on extended trainer time, the Computrainer will “make you” do whatever workout you program it to do. If you program in a 2x20 @ 200w interval workout, that is what you will do… You can’t get lazy and do 18min @ 180w and 15min at 140w.

cool! this is what i was looking for. and thanks for explaining the subtlety b/e SRM and PT. i’ll also read more about SRM, since i heard many good this about it.

My opinion:

just wait a bit. I know of at least 4 different alternative ANT+ head units that are soon to be released.

 how low will they go ?

and thanks for the wheel and tire info . i now can coast down hills faster then my wife . whch never happened with my other wheel tire combo.
thom

**Nobody else would suggest this, so here goes. **Have you looked at the Kurt Kinetic Power Computer? If you already have a good fluid trainer, you can do repeatable, “power-based” training on that. In fact, you can use their formula for calculating the power curve on your own if you want. Not accurate, but repeatable results…

Now if you don’t already have either a Cycleops or KK fluid trainer, you might as well eBay an old powertap.

http://www.kurtkinetic.com/calibration_chart.php

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...a%20kinetic;#1433050
Actually, that was a suggestion in the very first reply…

The KK fluid trainer is reasonably accurate for STEADY STATE power. I.e., it’s acceptable for 30min efforts. But, it’s based entirely on the speed of the trainer. So it’s not really any different than just keeping track of your speed and trying to hold that constant on the trainer. You can do that with any computer that picks up speed off the rear wheel. It’s also VERY bad for short intervals - which is what I think most of use trainers for - get on, ride hard, get off, hopefully before your crotch is entirely numb. Since the KK thing works off speed, if you do hard sprints, it will totally miss the power spike at the beginning. Sure, once you get the wheel up to speed it’s accurate, but again, you are still no better off than if you just monitored your speed on the trainer week to week.

In terms of SRM being the best, I think this was the case, but in my own experience and in many others, it appears both Quarq and PT are more consistent and reliable than SRMs are now, especially with big temperature drifts. SRM is certainly no more accurate than either a PT or a Quarq.

The cost argument in terms of “worrying about wheels” is also ONLY relevant if you already have a wheelset.

PT Elite+ Mavic Open Pro with computer is $1099 MSRP. Now you could easily put a disc cover on that wheel and have yourself a very fast race wheel. But let’s say you want a race wheel. You want a “regular” disc. You can get a Zipp Clincher PT disc for $3465. Both wheels at TriSports.com. And then let’s say you want a SRAM RED 10spd crank, that adds $319 @ performance.

With an SRM, going with the cheapest option - which is heavy and not really a very good crankset - you’re at $2,995. For a nice carbon crank, you’re closer to $3,695. Add in $100 for a decent open pro training wheel on reasonable hub (say ultegra). And then you want a disc - $1850 for the non-PT version of the clincher disc.

$3695 + 100 + 1850 = 5645 for an SRM set-up
$3465 + 1099 + 319 = 4883 for a PT set-up.

Now, of course, you can get both set-ups cheaper if you go with an 808 with PT and get a cheaper crankset OR if you get a cheaper rear race wheel and downspec the quality of the cranks with an SRM. You can also get a cheaper disc if you get the HED wheels, which use a standard PT SL+ hub (as opposed to the Zipp’s which use a Zipp hub with PT electronics), or cheaper wheels if you choose HED hoops as well.

Even if you choose to add a non-disc rear race wheel, say for Kona, your incremental cost is still less than you might think, since you can order the wheel built without a computer, which drops the cost a couple hundred dollars. In that case you’re close in cost if you wanted a top-quality crankset, and you’re not too much more expensive if you wanted an el cheapo crankset (and if you are going to quibble about crank quality when you’re spending close to 10,000 total on wheels and cranks and such, then whatever).

Yes, with an SRM you have the opportunity to buy used race wheels. But, you also have the opportunity with a PT to pick up multiple used hubs, which can drop your cost just as much.

If you already have a significant investment in race wheels, then yes, a crank-based system is the way to go. But if you don’t, it’s basically a wash. And if you want to talk about crank-based systems, Quarq should definitely be included.

 Actually, that was a suggestion in the very first reply...

My apologies to JSA, I missed that at the end of his post. And sure, you can’t measure super short intervals. But if you are just doing 2x20’s it works fine. Right up until he wants to train outside…

http://www.neuvationcycling.com/product153.html
Powertap with the computer

http://www.neuvationcycling.com/product154.html
Powertap without the computer.

I’ve also been doing my homework on the whole PT/SRM/CT situation (all while working to put my wife through med school… which isn’t a cheap thing) and I’m extremely close to getting one of these options. I’m thinking I might do a PT without the computer and splurge a little more to get the Garmin Edge 705. A 27mm alloy rim for $900 (for the Elite PT) or a 50mm deep carbon rim for $1050… not a bad deal!

thank you ALL very much! i appreciate your feedbacks and opinions about CTs and PMs. i will check out all the option you guys mentioned, tighten the belt and buy my new toy!
cheers,
A.K