Does anyone know anything about a workout by this name?
If I remember correctly it’s a set of decending 800’s based on projected marathon finish time.
You’re basically correct. The idea behind this workout, which has been around a long time, is that you can predict your marathon time (in hours) from your 800 time (in minutes). Here’s a link to a Runners’ World article
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-51-54-0-624,00.html
if you want to run XhYmin for a marathon, you should be able to do 12 times XminYsec for 800m with 400m jog in XminYsec in between, provided, of course, that you still do your long runs etc.
The workout was thought up by Bart Yasso - a long time Runner’s World Magazine employee. Bart does the event marketing for RW, I believe. They workout is as follows:
Tale your marathon time, say 3:00 hrs. You willl then do a work out, perferably on the track where you will run an 800m( 2 laps) in 3:00 min at roughly your 5K race pace intensity. You will then take a 3:00 min walk/jog recovery and then you will repeat the hard/fast 800m over again and carry on hard/easy like that for 5 - 8 cycles to start. It’s actually not a bad work out for people with marathon PB of less than 3:30. Not sure for folks slower than that.
Fleck
The theory goes if you want to run a 3 hour mary train to do 10 x 800 on 3 minutes. A four hour mary, 10 x 800 on 4 minutes. Basically it correlates the VO2Max pace of a runner to the 800 meter distance. Some people swear by them, others think they are a farce. Head over to any running forum and you will get a healthy dose of debate.
I remember reading about this several years ago. I think the gist is to run 800 repeats at a consistant pace, maybe starting with 4 and adding one or two per week and working up to…16 maybe? Then take your 800 time; for example 4 minutes add a zero and you will get your projected marathon time; 4 hours…
Does that sound right?
Bart explained to me that he never intended for this workout to 1) predict marathon times or 2) bear his name, and does not endorse it as such. My wife trained for a boston qualifying attempt, ran the 800’s within the parameters of what some say would indicate a successful BQ rather comfortably, and then ran the race 5 minutes faster than “predicted”.
Yeah… It’s a good workout but I didn’t find it to be a very good predictor of marathon times personal. I came from a sprint/800m background so the 800s were a cake to complete at the projected paces, but I never finished marathons at the predicted paces… I guess it depends what type of runner you are. I think it’s easier for those with a bith more “fast twitch”.
I think that one of the reasons that Bart came up with this work out is the simplicity of this. Many new runners can look at all this training mumbo jumbo and get really confused, really easily. I have seen programs that some “coaches” have put together for people that are more detailed than the programs for top international caliber runners. Here was a workout that is really straight forward and easy to follow. It may not be perfect, but so many rec runners just do the plod-along training all the time, that ANY type of training that will get them running faster for certain periods of time, will make them better runners.
Fleck
Does anyone have an idea of the value of this workout for improving Half Ironman run splits?
For example, say I want to finish a half with a 1:30 run. Would 10x800 on 3:00 be appropriate? Or should the workout look different? Should the interval be faster or slower than double the half marathon time?
It’s a great half IM split run improver. Here in Austin a group of us do them slightly modified… 12x800 on 4.30 with folks running anywhere from 2.30 to 2.50. We are absolutely blistered by the time this is done. with the short(er) rest you do not give your body as much time to flush out the LA nor allow the HR to drop down too much and thus this almost mimics a 10k tempo run but one done at waaaaay above tempo.
Does anyone have an idea of the value of this workout for improving Half Ironman run splits?
For example, say I want to finish a half with a 1:30 run. Would 10x800 on 3:00 be appropriate? Or should the workout look different? Should the interval be faster or slower than double the half marathon time?
3:00 800’s are a fine workout for around a 1:30 half marathon, but as has been pointed out about the Yasso’s for marathon purposes, they could be considered necessary (in that you should be able to do them) but not sufficient. Especially when extending it to half-Ironman, not just half marathon you need to be real comfortable running 7 minute miles when tired. A possibly more useful interval workout would be miles (or 1000s or 1200s) at around 6:40 pace with 400m very active (say 8:00 pace or better) recovery. Blasting quarters or 800s at 6 minute pace with lots of recovery can actually be easier than holding your goal pace, if you spend too much time doing the former and not enough getting comfortable and efficient at the latter.
I read that a few years ago. I think it gives sprinters or fast twitch genetic people false hope.
My best marathon now is a shitty 4:05. But I can run 3:30 800s, 10 times, and hold a 3:15–3:20, assuming I get a light jog around the track before we go off again.
I think its just genetic. I think there are some people who can just lay down some quick heat, and there’s those that can lay down some long heat. I don’t see how anyone can connect the two groups.
I can run 800s with the rest of the running group who run a 3:30 marathon, in my 40-50 age group. I think there might be a better correlation if one could make it to doing those and 5ks.
“For example, say I want to finish a half with a 1:30 run. Would 10x800 on 3:00 be appropriate?”
I think that’s a good workout for you, but, personally, I wouldn’t be confident of the translation. I don’t have any (ok, at this point in life, much) doubt that I could do 10x800 on 3:00 with a moderate recovery walk, but I ain’t running a 1:30 half mary off the bike, nor am I running a 3 hour marathon. You have to take your personal physiology into account also.
“For example, say I want to finish a half with a 1:30 run. Would 10x800 on 3:00 be appropriate?”
I think that’s a good workout for you, but, personally, I wouldn’t be confident of the translation. I don’t have any (ok, at this point in life, much) doubt that I could do 10x800 on 3:00 with a moderate recovery walk, but I ain’t running a 1:30 half mary off the bike, nor am I running a 3 hour marathon. You have to take your personal physiology into account also.
I should clarify myself. I’m not planning to extrapolate from 800’s to 13.1 miles. I already know I’m close from experience. I’m just looking for way to get a couple minutes quicker.
if you’re only a couple of minutes off and, in particular, if you are one of Booth’s “slowtwitcher” types, I think it would be a good workout for you. 2 caveats, though, I would keep the recovery active and short, i.e, slow jog 400 rather than walk, and I’d try to work my way up to 12-16 of them.
Good luck.
Not to call you out on this one Mark…but there are several predictors out there for running performance. I’ve checked them and based on your workout, the group that you are running with is capable of running anywhere from a 34:20 10k on the slow end to a 31:40 or so 10k on the fast end. Capital 10k should be a fun race with those types of runners.
Another point of reference is that those times equate to an open half marathon of about 1:16:50 on the ‘slow’ end and 1:10:40 on the fast end.
Yasso 800s are a great workout and can be a pretty good predictor provided the mileage and other training has been put in to run a good marathon.
10x800 on 3:00 with around 2:00 rest oddly enough predicts a marathon of 2:56 and change.
Caleb: if you are properly trained I’d say the 10 x 800 on 3:00 would be a good indicator of fitness for only a stand alone 1:30 1/2 marathon. I think that’s about what my wife was running her “Yasso’s” at before her last 1/2, and she went under 1:30. I personally prefer to descend my 800s, starting at 3:10, dropping maybe 3 -5 seconds a repeat until you are basically all out. You’d want to do more like 2:50 repeats to be able to do that at the end of a 1/2 IM.
Great workout … in theory. Start at just 4x800 and build up to 10 x 800 over 2-3 months or so.
Over the course of 2-3 months, I have managed to get to 10 x 800 on 2:50 (plus long runs and high mileage) no problem, but a 2:50 marathon is a mission indeed … I’m still looking to break 3 some day …
Brandon, no worries on the call out. I never advocated this workout as a “you train X, then you will race Y” I believe the OP had asked if this was a good workout for improving 1/2 IM splits. I suggested that it was and if it was inferred that I meant it to mean you could extrapolate something from the data than perhaps I was not clear enough. As for your extrapolating of my track group’s data… WOW! I’d say we are all poor underperformers. FWIW… Chris Martinez was the 2.30 guy Patrick Hall and Liz “nc2a” shelton were at 2.40-ish and I hovered between 2.45-50 (let it also be known that we were BEAT when this was done). Furthermore I had just gotten back into more serious running after a month of 20 mile weeks (low volume). Chris (the fastest in the group) I believe barely cracked 1.20 at 3M, therefore using this set as an indictor is harldy reliable. What I am getting at is that while it is a great workout for improving both IM and Half IM run speed one should not read into the results that the data brings.