WTC and ITU working together?

Just saw an interesting article over at Ironman.com:
http://ironman.com/mediacenter/ironman-ceo-andrew-messick-and-itu-president-marisol-casado-meet-to-discuss-future-endeavors.?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ironman%2Ftopstories+(Ironman.com+Top+Stories)&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher#axzz1k784nlRh

The first thing that came to mind was going to ITU rules on the bikes…

They should work together. Its silly to have multiple sets of rules, design criteria for equipment and championships. But the danger is instead of picking what each does best, they will combine the worst.

Just saw an interesting article over at Ironman.com:
http://ironman.com/...etcher#axzz1k784nlRh

The first thing that came to mind was going to ITU rules on the bikes…

The only time ITU bike rules are in effect is in their draft legal races. Long-course has never been legally draft legal and neither have their age group races. Thats really not an issue.

For me, I’d just like to take away the ITU Long Course stuff and give it to WTC and just kinda make everything seperate and generalize it simply as the ITU is the draft format, and WTC is the long course (half/IM distances~with of course the new 5150 series stuff). That’s in the most basic of formats is what I’m suggesting.

The ITU doesn’t seem to be super invested in LD World Champs, so it wasn’t surprising to see that they might hand over the reigns to Ironman on that. Kind of odd to have 1/2-Ironman, “3/4 Ironman” (aka ITU LD), and Ironman WC. That being said, I think the 4k/120k/30k distance is awesome, and I’d be sad to see it go away.

It would be nice to see a consistent set of rules regarding wetsuits, though. The ITU’s rules are superior, IMO, because they consider air temp as well as water temp. 65F water is very different if it’s 35F out vs. 85F out…

I also think the ITU rules regarding uniforms are better. Stuff like this (sorry Andreas) is just not good for pros:
http://slowtwitch.com/images/glinks/articles/Top15run2010/AndreasRaelertRun.jpg
It’d be good to see a back zip ruling, or even a minimum front zipper length, something I know WTC is considering. If they could get on board with the ITU on that, it’d be nice.

It would be nice to see a consistent set of rules regarding wetsuits, though. The ITU’s rules are superior, IMO, because they consider air temp as well as water temp. 65F water is very different if it’s 35F out vs. 85F out…//

I hope they do not adopt the ITU swim rules, because there is something terribly wrong with them if they decided to cancel the swim in Vegas this year. Sure there is a difference if it is cold outside, and that difference should be 4 minutes added onto most folks transitions to put on some layers for the bike and run. But to cancel a swim that is not even close to being as cold as 100’s of races that do go on with the swim, something is just not right there…

It would be nice to see a consistent set of rules regarding wetsuits, though. The ITU’s rules are superior, IMO, because they consider air temp as well as water temp. 65F water is very different if it’s 35F out vs. 85F out…//

I hope they do not adopt the ITU swim rules, because there is something terribly wrong with them if they decided to cancel the swim in Vegas this year. Sure there is a difference if it is cold outside, and that difference should be 4 minutes added onto most folks transitions to put on some layers for the bike and run. But to cancel a swim that is not even close to being as cold as 100’s of races that do go on with the swim, something is just not right there…

I think that’s a good idea - to have a mandatory minimum transition time if it’s cold out. Certainly would give them a bigger cushion before canceling the swim. As far as enforcement, it would be easy, I think, because you just do it off chip time.

ITU rules for draft-illegal events are the same uci time trial rules.
http://www.triathlon.org/images/uploads/itusport_competition-rules_20110222.pdf

There are significant differences between those and current rules we operate under for usat.

The most obvious is that softrides, titanflexes and other beam bikes would be outlawed for competition straight away.

The saddle rules would also rule out some of the new short saddles made to help people with problems with the “boys.”

Let me know when you do an itu race that actually checks any of those bike requirements for age groupers.

I think that’s a good idea - to have a mandatory minimum transition time if it’s cold out. //

Actually that is not what i was getting at, a mandatory transition time. Like Ron Paul, i believe govt. should get out of the way here, and people should be able to choose if they need to layer up or not. 5 years ago when i did Oceanside and it was 52 degrees or so, and raining and cold outside, they had their swim. Dean Harper and i lead the old mans group in the swim, only i got on my bike straight away with a tri suit, and he took 5 minutes to warm up and layer up. I should not be penalized because i have learned to tolerate cold, or have a affinity for it built in. I certainly get penalized for racing in very hot weather. I guess i should have lobbied for long T-2’s in a cold bath so that we could all cool down before we run. If you think that sounds a little crazy, then perhaps you should reread what you though was a good idea…

I like the uniform rules with regards to ITU pro’s. I never really understood why pro runners/triathletes dont have their names on their jerseys in the first place to help fans identify who they are (sometimes race belts dont always have the names on them).

What I think is that people are very often stupid and make especially stupid decisions during races. However, the races/race-directors are often the ones who are penalized for people’s bad decision making when things go wrong. Yes, people should be held accountable, but given the general lack of such accountability in society at large, I don’t see it coming to races any time soon. If it’s hot out, people slow down, or drop out. That’s easy to do on the run. So it’s relatively low risk. Putting people at risk or, rather, allowing them to put themselves at risk early in the race is something that needs to be taken into consideration, because people have shown that they simply don’t account for it on their own.

There was a lot of stuff that went on in the 80s when you were racing that would NEVER be allowed today. Some of that is too bad. Some of it isn’t. But regardless, it’s the reality of a sport that is starting to grow beyond status as a crazy fringe populated solely by lunatics. Hockey goalies used to play without face masks. Now they can’t. Should a hardass who doesn’t want to have his vision impaired by a face mask be forced to use one? Yes. I think he should. And that’s a sport where it’s strictly pros vs. pros.

Regulation happens. Sometimes it sucks. But, unfortunately, it’s necessary when people don’t make good decisions on their own. That may not be the way things should be, but it’s the way things are. And I’d rather see mandatory transition times and fewer cancelled swims than fewer cancelled swims because there are less races because people crash, suffer hypothermia, etc.

Somebody help me, I sound like a politician…

Regulation happens. Sometimes it sucks.//

And unlike Ron Paul, i do believe there has to be some regulation, but where the line is being drawn is what concerns me. Yes, there are a lot of athletes that have to be saved from themselves, but i do not wish to see the entire sport dumbed down to the lowest athlete’s abilities, just to make sure EVERYONE gets to finish. I have watched and participated for over 35 years now in swims, cold, hot, rough, and smooth. From what i have witnessed, cold water does not kill people in the swim. In fact, before wetsuits there were many cold water swims, colder than allowed today, and nobody died. Were there more rescues and people just pulling the plug, sure there were. Just like people pull the plug today all along all 3 events. I see swims cancelled now that are in harbors that barley have white caps(about a 12mph wind), and then athletes talking about the 6ft waves afterwards. I guess like most things it will swing wildly to the opposite end, and eventually come back to the middle where it should have gone in the 1st place. But in the meantime, i hate the sport being on the pussyfied end, and will continue to point it out to all that will listen, until we can move it back to some logical middle ground.

And for the record, there are not conditions where you cancel a smooth swim that is just under 60 degrees, especially a world championship. IF it is snowing outside and the roads are unrideable, then you cancel the bike, not the swim…

RE: i hate the sport being on the pussyfied end, and will continue to point it out to all that will listen, until we can move it back to some logical middle ground.


until you are the Race Director and getting sued. I think then your “get this regulation out of sport” thinking would change. Lord knows, Americans LOVE to sue. Nothing is ever the person(s) fault, is someone who put on the race so sue them.

While there is quite a bit of soft decisions re: swim cancellations; fact is, with more people in our sport bound to be more less that qualified swimmers. Sucks they have to manage to the lowest denominator, but that is kind of what insurance and lawyers do and they are 2 key players in the race event industry unfortunately.

Let me know when you do an itu race that actually checks any of those bike requirements for age groupers.

Is there AG racing at the WCS race in San Diego next year? I think you’ll find it checked then. I know at ITU WC Auckland we got sent the race notes before it and it spelled out clearly that beam bikes were not allowed.

Hi Rhys,

I believe Monty is also speaking from extensive experience as a race director, but I am not sure.

As an athlete who thrives in heat and races poorly in cold (opposite from Monty, I think we should exchange the locations were we live as I just did a 4+ hour XC ski in minus 20 to minus 15C this morning), I don’t like the idea of mandatory transition times to give people time to “dress up” and save themselves from their stupidity. I’d rather see that being “part of the competition”, and the athlete who can dress up quick and survive the cold best improves his odd of doing well (this from someone who really suffers in the cold).

Here are some ideas, resulting in almost no additional transition time.

swim with Iifa/polyporpelene top under wetsuit…it dries off 2 min after getting on the bikefull finger gloves on aeorbar extensions, put them on after starting ridea large plastic bag folded and taped to top tube (or inside bento box)…stuff this inside top after starting to pedalleave bathing cap on under helmetoptional full zip vest in transitionDuct tape on helmet ventsDuct tape over all vents on shoesvaseline before swimming on face, arms legs…helps water bead off the body as soon a you start riding in case of rain (screw the wetsuit…it’s only 1 day)The delta to transition times is almost nothing (I should not give away all my tricks but consider it public service)…yet one can really survive some colder racing with the above

until you are the Race Director and getting sued. I think then your “get this regulation out of sport” thinking would change. Lord knows, Americans LOVE to sue.//

Ok pop quiz…Exactly how many RD’s in the past 35 years since the sport has been around have been sued and lost?? Remember that will be millions of athletes in tens of thousands of races, how many do you know of?? You must know of a bunch to have such a paranoid stance about the freedom of sport that we grew up on…

Don’t lie or make up some shit, because i know the answer…

Almost forgot, i have owned and or produced over 60 triathlons, so i guess my opinion is that of someone that was responsible for the entire race, and not just some participant that has an axe to grind…

Well I dont think it’s simply a matter of losing a lawsuit. I think the aggrevation/negativity of simply being sued can be enough of a headache for most RD’s right? Sure, I’m guessing most will always win in an actual court of law (I’m guessing 99.9% would win in a trial), but I think most RD’s simply live with a more defensive mindset of not even allowing the situation to come up for a lawsuit to occur. Therefore, RD’s direct on side of precaution alot more these days, simply to stay away from the headache that a lawsuit will bring.

ETA: I think that’s the the cost of doing business in our society for just about any entity whether private business or in public sector (cover your ass mentality). Your going to sacrifice on quality with the way our society revolves around not having people take personal responsibilty. If that means, we are basically having to cave so that everyone can finish, I think it’s simply is what it is. While, I think most on here would like to add reasonable enough regulation, I think it’s just a sign of the times that we’re going overboard with race setups. That doesnt make it right, or that most want it that way, I just dont think you can fault anyone for how they work a race.

If your concerned about where the line is being drawn with how races are being run and regulated, I’d say keep on doing what your doing with your RD’ing and helping with races. If it means you are the exception to keeping it “real”, by all means, keep that fight going!

but I think most RD’s simply live with a more defensive mindset of not even allowing the situation to come up for a lawsuit to occur. //

IF that was the way we were all to think, we would never get on our bikes and go ride outside. The number of folks killed just out riding is staggering as compared to those that die in races. IF we all adopt this defensive attitude you speak of, i guess we could all do all our training and racing inside the gym i suppose. It is one thing to take care for a legit reason, another all together for an irrational fear. No more ocean swimming, possible shark attacks, no more riding in the rain, too many crashes, cancel the race if over 90 degrees, too many heat stroke victims, where do you stop the madness and we still have an actual sporting event?? RD’s getting sued and losing is an irrational fear. As you point out, many get sued, and there is NO way around that. People can sue, so if you put on an event, you can get sued for just about anything, and they do. But RD’s do not lose. IF that were the case, there would be no WTC. How many people have died in their races? Too many to count in my head right now. Two died in one race in NY this year, and it filled up again this year in minutes. Getting sued is part of doing business in just about any industry, but the real question is who wins those law suits, and who actually pays…

Let me know when you do an itu race that actually checks any of those bike requirements for age groupers.

Is there AG racing at the WCS race in San Diego next year? I think you’ll find it checked then. I know at ITU WC Auckland we got sent the race notes before it and it spelled out clearly that beam bikes were not allowed.

Okay so lets say they do enforce the beam bike policy how many people does that actually cause problems for in the whole tri community. Under 1000? To be honest I think I have maybe seen only one or two ever at a race. My point is, their rules are not strick at all, and the whole where the seat is to the bottom bracket will probably never be looked at especially at ironman races. I just don’t see this as a major stumbling block.