…with today’s training shoe technology and today’s available racing flats on courses like Berlin or Rotterdam.
It seems interesting that all these non Kenyans were running 2 decades ago almost as fast at Kenyans today…well, not almost as fast as today’s African runners like Haille or Tergat, but what if they had better shoes to train in and better shoes to race in…do those 2:07 times turn to 2:05xx? We’re talking 3-5 seconds per mile difference.
Regardless it is interesting that all these guys were non African and it seems that the truly elite marathon performances are owned by Africans. Why are there so few non Africans even doing times like the Aussies, Europeans and Americans could do in the 80’s?
Lopes was a superior runner overall, no doubt but Jones was a superior marathoner. When Lopes did his 2:07:11 he had two big Belgians pacing him and blocking the wind. When Jones did his 2:07:12 he had nobody. He dropped the rabbit after 2 miles and went through the halfway mark faster than what had been the world record for that distance just a couple of years earlier.
Either one of them could have gone 2:05:xx
Incidentally, today’s shoe technology gives nothing over what Jones and Lopes had. Training theory for running has not improved in any significant way either that I can see
Paulo, I think Jones and Lopes are the class of that list, however, I am not really debating who was the best amongst these guys…all I am asking is whether the pundits on ST think these guys could go toe to toe with today’s Kenyans and Ethiopeans. I believe they could…which leads me to believe that there are kids in Britain, or Portugal, or the US that should be able to compete head to head with the Africans, but we’re just not getting those kids either willing to do the training, or getting into running in the first place…maybe they are snowboarding, or riding BMX bikes or playing Nintendo. The Africans might just be more hungry to do this marathon thing…it is their ticket to a much better life.
I’m not sure that shoe technology in racing flats has any significant advantage over what they were racing in back then. I think they might even be worse.
I also don’t know that you can make concrete statements about courses either. If you want to get political and throw climate change into the mix, it’s possible that they actually had an advantage in the 80’s with generally cooler temperatures. Certainly 1-2deg of temperature could offer a significant improvement. Most climate change estimations also anticipate stronger winds, so that’s also something to factor in.
All in all, I’m not sure there is much in the way of technology - especially in equipment - that would have given those runners an advantage today. And if you want to open the can of worms, weather may actually be hurting the runners of today.
The biggest improvements nowadays are could definitely be due to insights for more effective nutrition and recovery. Recovery would likely be the big difference maker for training, at least in my opinion.
There is nothing in shoe technology that would make you faster today than in the 80s. I had some kick ass NB and Nike racing flats back then that were every bit as effective as anything that I could put on my feet today. I think that Lopes Olympic marathon effort in '84 could have been a 2:05 on a course like Berlin. He certainly made that race look effortless in the LA heat and smog.
I think on the balance the racing flats today are a bit lighter and have more padding than 85 years ago. How much?
The training shoe technology however is much better. This should allow them to do the same training runs and recover faster, thus improving the quality of overall training. Lopes’ Olympic marathon on the hilly course in the heat of LA was amazing. The Olympics have never been a race to put down a fast time, just win the medal, so that 2:07 is way up there for all time performances. He also had no rabbits for this 2:07…just real competitors.
I think on the balance the racing flats today are a bit lighter and have more padding than 85 years ago. How much?
The training shoe technology however is much better. This should allow them to do the same training runs and recover faster, thus improving the quality of overall training. Lopes’ Olympic marathon on the hilly course in the heat of LA was amazing. The Olympics have never been a race to put down a fast time, just win the medal, so that 2:07 is way up there for all time performances. He also had no rabbits for this 2:07…just real competitors.
(I think you mean in the 80s, not 85 years ago!)
The shoe technology is really not much better. Frankly I think in many respects it’s worse. The training shoes today are definitely much more built up compared to then. Some of the shoes today that are “racing shoes” or “lightweight trainers” are heavier than the Nike Pegasus I used to wear back then. The flats aren’t lighter either. My Nike American Eagles from 1983 were as light as some of the lightest flats you can buy today with no appreciable difference in cushioning.
I’m not looking back with rose colored glasses either. Until around 2005, I had a box in which I had thrown a number of my old shoes over the years. I still had a few pairs of my old trainers and the flats I mentioned. Before I threw them out, I took the time to actually compare them to my current shoes at the time. Weighed them and everything (I’m a bit of a shoe weenie). I was rather surprised myself that the older shoes were far closer to what I’m looking for when I buy today than most of the shoes I can actually buy. I remember the that the Nike Pegasus from 2005 were almost 3 full ounces heavier than the Pegasus I’d worn back in the 80s, but the older ones still felt better.
Well that is, before they started to fall apart on my feet on account of being over 20 years old…
To be fair, clearly my experience in this matter is limited to Nike shoes. Back then, Nike was all I wore. I’m a little more varied in my selection these days but I still love Nike.
My favourite racing flats from the 80’s were the Nike Air Mariah (please bring it back) and the Nike Sock Racers (the original Nike free, but the free is still way heavier than the sock racer)…but those shoes were around 4 years after the club of 4 runners I refer to above.
I ran in Nike Air Pegasus in 1983. The Pegasus today is worse for the fit and feel I want (or maybe my body is just crumbling worse…), but there are also many more better shoes out there today.
I think the top marathon runners from western european countries were way less protected at young age. They were used to run long AND fast all year around from a young age. Right now our young talented long distance athletes get wasted because they are taught how to run fast and short track repetitions. The athletes back then were just training harder and longer. That works better on the long distance then all those fancy short distance interval training. Africans do this long and fast training from young age, and that is besides genetics why they dominate the sport. The young western talents have not a big enough aerobic engine to compete. Very simple.
…thank you…I kinda wanted someone else to say it. I don’t think the Africans are genetically any better predisposed to running fast, as athletes of western European genetic stock have excelled at marathon to the same degree as the Africans as little as 20 years ago. The genetic ability to compete is still clearly there. The Africans just have a better system for producing marathon runners, just like Cuba has a good system for baseball players or Canada having an excellent system for ice hockey players.
I think that east african have a higher density of long distance talents than western europe. That doesn’t mean we don’t have some talents here that can make it to the top. Spain, Italy but also non-western nations like morocco produced some great marathon runners the past 10 years. They all have the same training system though, long and fast instead of short and fast (leaving out the spanish, italian medical assistent as an important factor…).
with today’s training shoe technology and today’s available racing flats on courses like
Dev, the running shoe companies would want us to believe otherwise, but running shoes are not that much different than they were 20 years ago - particularly racing shoes.
As to De Castella, Salazar and Lopes, I am thinking of the three, Lopes may have gone faster. The key is looking at 5K and 10K speed and I seem to recall he had the better credentials. I don’t think that any of these three ran 27 minutes low or under for 10K( stats gurus please help out - believe that Lopes was a medalist in the 10,000m at either the Woeld Championships or Olympic Games) and I think that is a key bench-mark for the really fast marathon runners these days.
I note that Salazar ran his best marathons when he still considered himself a 5K and 10K runner. When he started calling himself a marathon runner and focussing exclusivly on the marathon, I don’t think that he ran much faster.
Not always good for rec runner to follow exactly the elites, but that is a good take-away for the rec-runner crowd - keep working on that 5K and 10K speed.
I think on the balance the racing flats today are a bit lighter and have more padding than 85 years ago. How much?
The training shoe technology however is much better. This should allow them to do the same training runs and recover faster, thus improving the quality of overall training. Lopes’ Olympic marathon on the hilly course in the heat of LA was amazing.** The Olympics have never been a race to put down a fast time, just win the medal, so that 2:07 is way up there for all time **performances. He also had no rabbits for this 2:07…just real competitors.
Not sure if I am reading this wrong, but wanted to point out the Lopes never ran 2:07 in the Olympics. Without taking time to look it up I believe it was in the 2:09:30 range. Still an amazing time.
To your original question. I think those guys could have run with today’s top guys. They all just trained there asses off. I don’t know much about Carlos, but I know that Jones and Deek trained like animals. I think it would have also been interesting to see what someone like Toshiheko Seko could have done. He always raced to win and did what he had to, to get the win. Besides anyone who can drink 12 beers as after long run nutrition because he had an upset stomach deserves mention.
I think in the 80’s and late 70’s the focus was more on stamina. Sustaining a fast pace for a long time. That is something different than going to get as fast as you can be. That is what coaches tried later. Getting to faster marathons by focussing on 1500 metre speed work, especially for young talented athletes. The results proved this method wrong. The great marathon runners from the 80’s were not incredibly fast. But they had a great capacity of holding a fast pace for a long time. Of course, stamina is worth nothing if you are not fast enough, but those marathon runners were not pushing the limits with speed work but with tempo paced long intervals or long tempo runs. Long and fast…
I ran in Nike Air Pegasus in 1983. The Pegasus today is worse for the fit and feel I want (or maybe my body is just crumbling worse…), but there are also many more better shoes out there today.
Dev,
Agreed. That orginal Air Pegasus, in my view was one of the best training shoes that Nike ever made. Bomb-proof. Full rubber waffle lugged sole. Polyurathane midsole that lasted forever, and a strong and sturdy upper. It was the perfect neutral cushioned training shoe. I had a number of pairs and would put big miles on them.
With respect to the shoe companies, I think to a certain degree the trainers these days are worse. Few use real carbon rubber on the soles anymore - it’s blown rubber that has poor grip and wears easily. They use much lighter and less duarble blown foam in the mid sole that does not last as long as the polyurathane and the uppers are very thin and don’t seem to last that long either. What happened?
Not sure if I am reading this wrong, but wanted to point out the Lopes never ran 2:07 in the Olympics. Without taking time to look it up I believe it was in the 2:09:30 range. Still an amazing time.
To your original question. I think those guys could have run with today’s top guys. They all just trained there asses off. I don’t know much about Carlos, but I know that Jones and Deek trained like animals. I think it would have also been interesting to see what someone like Toshiheko Seko could have done. He always raced to win and did what he had to, to get the win. Besides anyone who can drink 12 beers as after long run nutrition because he had an upset stomach deserves mention.
You are correct. Lopes ran 2:09:21 in the 84 LA games. For many years, that was the Olympic record.