Women's Nice is not a World Championship

So here’s something that kinda bugs me about your commentary. You seem to never be able to keep it down the middle. Like 100% he’s “spending money”, but why you can’t credit that the PTO is at min putting together a professional league for the next 2-3 years to give itself a chance, is beyond me. Like I do not think in a million years this is going to be long term successful. But I’m not going to then shit on them because imo they are pretty much doing everything they can to take the best product to market. Again the PTO “success” bar is so hard that it’s likely not going to make it because imo a 3+ hour triathlon race imo just isn’t going to push through an already very busy sports worldwide sports culture. But to the PTO’s credit- they are doing the steps necessary to put it itself in a position of success. So if this fails, it’s because the “general public” won’t buy in…not because they “penny pinched” or they lacked the funds to make it work…or they didn’t get talent to the races. And so imo that deserves a ton of credit and I don’t know that it’s just 1 billioniare doing this as a tax write off at this point and investment structure anymore. That was 2-3 years ago, not now.

ETA: It can end up a failure and that not necessarily mean it was a “negative” for the sport. Like shit on them for many things if you must, but atleast give them some credit for “going for it” and putting their best pro tri series forward with real investment and help for the pro’s. It may not make it long term (which is my guess/thoughts) but at least they have got the investment and capital an abiility to what broadcast into what 1/2 the countries in the world. So not every angle has to be shitted on them imo.

Honestly, I’m a huge fan of triathlon. I watch tons of races. I post way too much on this forum My biggest issue with the PTO and why I may be unwilling to “credit” them is they continue to maintain this level of being an “athletes advocacy organization” which it is 100% not. Shed that completely and we’ll see where I land.

But also?** My wife raced PTO USO Open Dallas**. I’m very cynical as you can tell. I saw how much they spent there, and then I do the math. It just doesn’t make sense to me…because I work in this space. Where the start up organization I work in spends a boatload of money. But there is a shot we succeed. We’re selling tickets, sponsorship, merch, broadcast rights. There are no tickets for the PTO 100, as Dev says, the spectators are actually amateurs that race at the same time as the pros. Just like Super League, I don’t get it from a business perspective. But at least SuperLeague understands that where they will make their money is mass participation. Does Renouf understand that? (I hope so, he ran a race registration platform)

As a pro?

People argue the PTO is giving fans a good product and pros a proper living. Saying that it is a bad business model and won’t last isn’t even a rebuttal to those points.

Also, so what that your wife raced there? Were you going somewhere with that?

Meanwhile the winner at Nice will be listed in a line of champions that goes back decades.You’re correct, the name of the Triple A talent will still be listed as a World Champion even though they never raced the best talent because the best talent chose the PTO Series.@timr your assertion is based on a false premise, and even then is a flawed assessment.
Tldr;

  1. The winner in Nice will have raced the best LD female athletes in the world in 2024.
  2. Virtually every year top athletes miss the world championships: but it is an aberration to judge that the absence of a single or a few athletes who might have raced means the race is “not a World Championships”.

In most sports with worldwide governance (excluding a few hijacked by one ‘great’ nation) there is a bona fide world championships organised and sanctioned by the world governing body, normally a single competition but sometimes a series or league.
Triathlon has that for the standard distance (SC). But the draft legal mode for triathlon’s second discipline is not suitable for longer distance and particularly not for mass amateur competition. The ITU, and its constituent (national federation) members had minimal motivation to provide elite competition at any longer distances despite the demand and interest in the participating and competing athletic population.
Because of that lacuna Ironman prospered and have become the dominant organiser giving opportunities to participate/race to millions. An annual race has been described by its promoter (to satisfy their commercial model) as ‘World Championships’ and recognised as such by athletes.
ITU/now ‘TRI’ have sought to differentiate between SC and ‘Long Distance’ (LD) and half-heartedly (tiny money) tried to provide a sanctioned LD championships but, at elite (professional) level have had minimal success.
Currently for long distance the IMWC is the de facto LD world champs.
For middle distance in 2024 Taupō will be the MD world champs (and every athlete that wants to race will be there).
But come 2025, the T100 series will decide who is MD World Champion: sanctioned by TRI, asserted by the PTO and recognised by the triathlon population (in preference to the 70.3 race put on by Ironman in Spain). Public perception will be driven by seeing the highest ranked athletes in the world competing in well broadcast competitive races around thw world, with a season long developing narrative building to a crescendo in the final race.

I have earlier suggested that nearly all the best LD female athletes from 2023 will race in Nice, as well as completing their T100 contracted races. Besides LCB and Knibb which contenders will choose not to race?

Was Kona 2010 “not a World Championships” because Wellington (for whatever reason) chose not to start (answer: of course it was). And in 2012? The 2011 champion Wellington didn’t race. Was Cave “not a World Champion”? In 2022 Matthews (#2 in the previous “not a World Championships”) had been gravely injured by a car driver days before: did her DNS mean that it was “not a World Championships”?
In 2018 Frodeno had broken himself in South Africa to beat Brownlee and Gomez (who seems to have DNF’d again btw (Tasmania)). Was Kona 2018 (MPro) “not a World Championships”? Frodeno’s (and Brownlee’s) absence in 2022 did not invalidate Kona 2022 as the (men’s IM) “World Championships”. If Iden (and several others) don’t make it to Kona in October does that mean it’s “not a World Championships”

Both the athletes and we spectators were truly fortunate that, in 2023 every possible contender (seven of them) entered and started IMWC(W) Kona, truly lucky: Ryf, Haug, LCB, Sodaro, Philipp, Knibb, Matthews. We may never see that again.But if Knibb had not started, would that have meant that in 2023 it was “not a World Championships”?

Why does the StroBro seem to trigger so many people here who would otherwise have lots of interesting things to say?

TheStroBro is a 100% certified troll. They bask in the attention. Forgive the unsolicited advice - ignore him. He will not be convinced. His only agenda is attention whoring. He will suck you in the “discussion” and beat you due to his experience.

Saying this for my own good as the forum ignoring mechanism doesn’t hide the troll’s gibberish when it’s quoted by someone you haven’t ignored.

Ironman is sanctioned by every federation and is a member of the ITU. So what is the point other than to just be negative against Ironman?

The difference is we’ll create an artificial distance and crown a 100k champion? I hope the money they’re paying the ITU is good.

can you explain what are you trying to say
what is being negative against ironman

ironman is not a member ot the itu

Irrespective of the field, the title is correct.

It’s a private race organisation calling a race a world championship.

No different to my local race organisation calling their summer sprint series a world championship.

I think the PTO simply went about it the wrong way to get into the fold. No one is ever going to be able to stand/represent the “pro field” because well there just isn’t enough money to properly act as an player repgresentation group. I mean they’ve culled the “advantages” from basically the start from what the top 100 to the top 50 to now basically their own series group only. So if that’s the biggest beef cool.

But I think beyond that this attempt at and actual success or failure is not really attached to that “hatred”. Who cares if they don’t sell tickets, they are now going to have a broadcast product in what half the countries in the world. That’s there avenue for sucess- a triathlon product will NEVER have “ticket sales”, so that’s not even necessary (unless they go to an 100% on site track type of facility).

When you say you work in this space, what space is that? Start up businesses? You seem very closed minded if that’s the case, or your trying to bring your “field” sport experience to this, which this sport is never going to be an “in person” experience. LOL it’s raced in front of miles and miles of open road, the broadcast is THE product, so I think you get caught up on the details that don’t matter and then peg their pelt to the wall on that justification.

So all I’m asking- I think it’s ok to bring a cynical mindset to it, and dissect every detail (I’ve thought their time line of dragging their feet hurts the “insiders” viewpoint on how it’s being run; so I’ve “hated” on the PTO from time to time for their decision making). I just don’t know that every PTO detail is negative that you seem to put on it. Like your hung up on the fact that it’s 1 big investor, yet not realizing they are moving forward with a viable product; so at that point who gives a fuck who or how much the 1 investment is. They’ve taken an idea and making it a reality.

I just dont think your “experience” is necessarily creating valuable discussion points. When you talk about ticket sales, that’s irrelevant in a sport like triathlon unless they go to on site track facilities only. Go look at the London Olympics, I believe they had 20k “paid spectators” and nearly 2million people accessing the triathlon for “free” on the side of the road. So I think they are doing exactly what you want- they are selling broadcast rights, they are getting more sponsors and they are getting the “branding” (T100 race series vs PTO 100 race series name, etc). But you refuse to give them 1% of credit ever, and that’s the part where if you want to talk about your own experience and judgement- you are failing imo as much as you think PTO is.

So here’s something that kinda bugs me about your commentary. You seem to never be able to keep it down the middle. Like 100% he’s “spending money”, but why you can’t credit that the PTO is at min putting together a professional league for the next 2-3 years to give itself a chance, is beyond me. Like I do not think in a million years this is going to be long term successful. But I’m not going to then shit on them because imo they are pretty much doing everything they can to take the best product to market. Again the PTO “success” bar is so hard that it’s likely not going to make it because imo a 3+ hour triathlon race imo just isn’t going to push through an already very busy sports worldwide sports culture. But to the PTO’s credit- they are doing the steps necessary to put it itself in a position of success. So if this fails, it’s because the “general public” won’t buy in…not because they “penny pinched” or they lacked the funds to make it work…or they didn’t get talent to the races. And so imo that deserves a ton of credit and I don’t know that it’s just 1 billioniare doing this as a tax write off at this point and investment structure anymore. That was 2-3 years ago, not now.

ETA: It can end up a failure and that not necessarily mean it was a “negative” for the sport. Like shit on them for many things if you must, but atleast give them some credit for “going for it” and putting their best pro tri series forward with real investment and help for the pro’s. It may not make it long term (which is my guess/thoughts) but at least they have got the investment and capital an abiility to what broadcast into what 1/2 the countries in the world. So not every angle has to be shitted on them imo.

Honestly, I’m a huge fan of triathlon. I watch tons of races. I post way too much on this forum My biggest issue with the PTO and why I may be unwilling to “credit” them is they continue to maintain this level of being an “athletes advocacy organization” which it is 100% not. Shed that completely and we’ll see where I land.

But also?** My wife raced PTO USO Open Dallas**. I’m very cynical as you can tell. I saw how much they spent there, and then I do the math. It just doesn’t make sense to me…because I work in this space. Where the start up organization I work in spends a boatload of money. But there is a shot we succeed. We’re selling tickets, sponsorship, merch, broadcast rights. There are no tickets for the PTO 100, as Dev says, the spectators are actually amateurs that race at the same time as the pros. Just like Super League, I don’t get it from a business perspective. But at least SuperLeague understands that where they will make their money is mass participation. Does Renouf understand that? (I hope so, he ran a race registration platform)

As a pro?

The Amateur Race or are we now calling them side races something else so we can bifurcate and obfuscate to support whatever point of view we have?

I think the PTO simply went about it the wrong way to get into the fold. No one is ever going to be able to stand/represent the “pro field” because well there just isn’t enough money to properly act as an player repgresentation group. I mean they’ve culled the “advantages” from basically the start from what the top 100 to the top 50 to now basically their own series group only. So if that’s the biggest beef cool.

But I think beyond that this attempt at and actual success or failure is not really attached to that “hatred”. Who cares if they don’t sell tickets, they are now going to have a broadcast product in what half the countries in the world. That’s there avenue for sucess- a triathlon product will NEVER have “ticket sales”, so that’s not even necessary (unless they go to an 100% on site track type of facility).

When you say you work in this space, what space is that? Start up businesses? You seem very closed minded if that’s the case, or your trying to bring your “field” sport experience to this, which this sport is never going to be an “in person” experience. LOL it’s raced in front of miles and miles of open road, the broadcast is THE product, so I think you get caught up on the details that don’t matter and then peg their pelt to the wall on that justification.

So all I’m asking- I think it’s ok to bring a cynical mindset to it, and dissect every detail (I’ve thought their time line of dragging their feet hurts the “insiders” viewpoint on how it’s being run; so I’ve “hated” on the PTO from time to time for their decision making). I just don’t know that every PTO detail is negative that you seem to put on it. Like your hung up on the fact that it’s 1 big investor, yet not realizing they are moving forward with a viable product; so at that point who gives a fuck who or how much the 1 investment is. They’ve taken an idea and making it a reality.

I just dont think your “experience” is necessarily creating valuable discussion points. When you talk about ticket sales, that’s irrelevant in a sport like triathlon unless they go to on site track facilities only. Go look at the London Olympics, I believe they had 20k “paid spectators” and nearly 2million people accessing the triathlon for “free” on the side of the road. So I think they are doing exactly what you want- they are selling broadcast rights, they are getting more sponsors and they are getting the “branding” (T100 race series vs PTO 100 race series name, etc). But you refuse to give them 1% of credit ever, and that’s the part where if you want to talk about your own experience and judgement- you are failing imo as much as you think PTO is.

We’ll have to disagree. Working in start up sports and challenger leagues gives me a perspective on the runway.

But when it comes to everything that comes out they are incredibly disorganized.

Yes. Their broadcast is available in 120 countries. Yet WB Discovery is small investor and won’t even think of putting it on its own platforms in the US. Think about that for a second.

Getting something available is actually incredibly easy once you’ve got the transmission bit down. Yes it’s a success. But what’s important here is what is the runway to ad sales and broadcast rights sales for survival.

You may think ticketing is irrelevant, which is fine. But ticket sales is still 1/3 of NFL revenue. It’s even more for the MLS and more for the NWSL (a start up).

My whole point of that is the economic model of triathlon requires mass participation to sustain it. PTO says a bunch of stuff but has never permitted a race to solely benefit the pro race. They have piggy backed off of other promoters. And now they’re licensing it to RDs, but unwilling to go do it just for 40 athletes. So what does that say about their model of creating a professional racing product.

Dunno, I’ve just looked at the business model and don’t see it. If they last 5 more years we’ll see how it goes.

More money to the top and no money to the bottom has also been one of my issues. Force a bunch of pros to qear your logo and pay them 0.

It’s obviously way too early to know if Nice will be watered down. A lot can change by then. What’s more likely, the PTO endures and Ironman fades away or the opposite?

If the likely bet is its only a matter of time before PTO fades away, how could anyone be so confident that that won’t happen in the next 7 months?

Money gets spent quickly and if there’s none left to spend, and rumors of athletes not getting paid etc start to go around behind the scenes you’ll quickly see more pros looking at Ironman.

When the start lists are out a month before the event then we can talk about a watered down World Championship.

As it is, if you want to see the best Ironman distance racer in the world in 2024, there’s only Kona or Nice where you’ll see it. If LCB doesn’t race, she won’t be the best. It’s not like she could just roll up without specific IM training this year and win it.

The best Ironman athlete in 2024 will win it. To say, “Ya but if she trained specifically for it, she’d win it.” Is silly. We might as well say if Katie Ledecky worked really hard for a few years on her bike and run she’d win. Ok, but until that happens whoever wins is the champion.

We’ll have to disagree. Working in start up sports and challenger leagues gives me a perspective on the runway.


That’s fine but if your going to give your prospetive, you have no real experience in the actual process they are doing vs the prospective of your actual experience. Case in point- your point on ticket sales and bringing in the NFL.

Guess what triathlon is not an “arena” sport that can put 50k paying fans in direct view point for the fan (and get revenue off that availability). This is never going to be an revenue stream opportunity for more than percentage points in triathlon by it’s very nature of races being raced on open roads in communities. So when you mention that as an issue, like no shit it’s an issue. But that’s only because of the arena they are playing on.

One last point- What PTO is doing has never been done before. They aren’t trying to run a race production company like IM / Challenge / insert whatever RD you want in this discussion that is 100000% reliant on you participating in their race. PTO is basically flipping the script on that because of the financial means they currently have. Instead of getting their finances from mass production, they have their finances from actual investors. Thus the need for mass production to help offset the costs is currently not the biggst limiter or need currently.

So when you tell me your all about startups and all the finances and then only tell me there is 1 way to make it work in triathlon- that’s not very “Start uppy” mindset imo. ETA: And mind you I’m with you if you think it will fail. I do not think the masses will care to tune in and drive advertisers to want to get in the broadcast of a 4-7 hour triathlon telecast (whether same day or back to back days). But I can atleast say “That was one hell of an effort to give it a real shot”. That imo is the difference and the issue I see with your commentatory.

So as I said, I think you at times bring up some great points, but your inability to ever have a conversation that doens’t result in the same comments from you is a bit as someone else mentioned “trollish”. I think the PTO justifiable has some holes in it’s platform and approach and isn’t above reproach. But when you can’t have 1 decent conversation without it turning into StroBro “hating” on everything PTO related, we all lose.

If the likely bet is its only a matter of time before PTO fades away, how could anyone be so confident that that won’t happen in the next 7 months?


I think it’s in for a good 2-3 year run of 6-10 races a year and putting that product to market. Which as I’ve said, at that point if it fails, so be it. It will fail because no one gives a shit about triathlon not because we didn’t give it the best “college try” possible.

I’ve just watched “not a World Championship” in cyclo-cross. WvA and Pidcock did not start. Since two of the best three chose other race series it meets the @timr definition quite neatly I think. In Nice I reckon 2/3rds of the top 9 will be there.

We’ll have to disagree. Working in start up sports and challenger leagues gives me a perspective on the runway.


That’s fine but if your going to give your prospetive, you have no real experience in the actual process they are doing vs the prospective of your actual experience. Case in point- your point on ticket sales and bringing in the NFL.

Guess what triathlon is not an “arena” sport that can put 50k paying fans in direct view point for the fan (and get revenue off that availability). This is never going to be an revenue stream opportunity for more than percentage points in triathlon by it’s very nature of races being raced on open roads in communities. So when you mention that as an issue, like no shit it’s an issue. But that’s only because of the arena they are playing on.

One last point- What PTO is doing has never been done before. They aren’t trying to run a race production company like IM / Challenge / insert whatever RD you want in this discussion that is 100000% reliant on you participating in their race. PTO is basically flipping the script on that because of the financial means they currently have. Instead of getting their finances from mass production, they have their finances from actual investors. Thus the need for mass production to help offset the costs is currently not the biggst limiter or need currently.

So when you tell me your all about startups and all the finances and then only tell me there is 1 way to make it work in triathlon- that’s not very “Start uppy” mindset imo. ETA: And mind you I’m with you if you think it will fail. I do not think the masses will care to tune in and drive advertisers to want to get in the broadcast of a 4-7 hour triathlon telecast (whether same day or back to back days). But I can atleast say “That was one hell of an effort to give it a real shot”. That imo is the difference and the issue I see with your commentatory.

So as I said, I think you at times bring up some great points, but your inability to ever have a conversation that doens’t result in the same comments from you is a bit as someone else mentioned “trollish”. I think the PTO justifiable has some holes in it’s platform and approach and isn’t above reproach. But when you can’t have 1 decent conversation without it turning into StroBro “hating” on everything PTO related, we all lose.

Brooks. Show me where they have flipped the script? Not a single race they’ve had was “professional” only. Super League and MLT maybe, but MLT is gone and Super League has launched mass participation.

As I’ve said multiple times. If this is really about a professional racing product, then only do that. Permit the body of water, the road, and the run course only for that race. Promote the hell out of it locally. See what happens. But you know what they’ve done?

We can’t even say Collins Cup was a standalone because it was attached to the Challenge Championship.

So for a professional race that was professional only and no amateur racing attached to it in the last five years? What was Tri-Battle?

Your arguing semantics on pto pro only vs “piggy backing” off an already known event. And guess what they aren’t even using those AG races as money driver, they are just using those as on site “vibe” checks to help aid the broadcast of said event. They literally have only been an schedule add to those events that were piggy backed. They didn’t make revenue from those AG registration numbers, that money went to the race/RD. Thus sorta proving my point- they don’t need that right now to “make it” to the general public; they have the funds, it’s just now going to be a matter of will the general public like the sports inventory in front of them.

So my point is you keep looking at it from your very specific pov and background- when in reality the pathway they are doing has very little with that specific pathway that you are experienced in. Thus when you bust them for lack of ticket sales, that’s irrelevant to the current pathway they are in. They have the funding currently to do it in lui of ZERO mass particpiation revenue. That’s my whole point, that you seem to not recognize, or it’s only “1 investor” who’s doing it for a tax break.

Also SLT has not gone the way of the “AG” mass participation route to help offset funds yet.

So yeah when I say that the PTO is doing this by bringing in millions and none of that money is from mass participation- you’d be silly to argue they haven’t flipped the financial script.

I think only 2 “PTO only” events have occurred- the CAN '22 and one of the Collin Cups (the other was attached to the Biosphere “world championship” through Challenge that is what in Croatia or Slovakia). I have no clue if some local RD put on an “AG” event in the Edmonton race before, but it was not part of an “big name” race.

So you talk about the WB being a small investment side of it. Deep dive more into that if you have the understanding of it. Deep dive into how or why they won’t be able to get ad revenue from their streaming. This whole “it’s 1 billionaire” blah blah you say over and over; we get it. But if you want to bust their chops tell us what the small investment actually means for the transmission of the broadcast, etc. That’s useful as hell commentary.

Your arguing semantics on pto pro only vs “piggy backing” off an already known event. And guess what they aren’t even using those AG races as money driver, they are just using those as on site “vibe” checks to help aid the broadcast of said event. They literally have only been an schedule add to those events that were piggy backed. They didn’t make revenue from those AG registration numbers, that money went to the race/RD. Thus sorta proving my point- they don’t need that right now to “make it” to the general public; they have the funds, it’s just now going to be a matter of will the general public like the sports inventory in front of them.

So my point is you keep looking at it from your very specific pov and background- when in reality the pathway they are doing has very little with that specific pathway that you are experienced in. Thus when you bust them for lack of ticket sales, that’s irrelevant to the current pathway they are in. They have the funding currently to do it in lui of ZERO mass particpiation revenue. That’s my whole point, that you seem to not recognize, or it’s only “1 investor” who’s doing it for a tax break.

So yeah when I say that the PTO is doing this by bringing in millions and none of that money is from mass participation- you’d be silly to argue they haven’t flipped the financial script.

I think only 2 “PTO only” events have occurred- the CAN '22 and one of the Collin Cups (the other was attached to the Biosphere “world championship” through Challenge that is what in Croatia or Slovakia)

Ticket Sales in Triathlon = Race Registrations.

There’s multiple investors, that’s clear. But the one that is responsible for where we are is Moritz. This cuts both ways. PTO isn’t where it is without him. If he never funded the original grant and then purchase equity with a 50/50 profit share in the agreement to the athletes. It doesn’t take off. But the question I continue to have, with the limited revenue categories for triathlon…is where is the “there”.

You tell me they’re not interested in race entries, well they better be because those races won’t get permitted without a couple hundred racers or they have to open the check book to a significantly different level to go pro only. How many triathlon events have been professional only in the last 5 years in long distance triathlon? Tri-Battle and Sub 7/Sub 8? Even Super League is in the mass participation business (this was always in their business plan btw per several interviews with Macca)

So if they don’t care about race registrations that eliminates a revenue category, but they haven’t shown this as they have never promoted a race solo without piggy backing. But let’s say they don’t right?

That leaves us:
Broadcast RightsSponsorshipsHost Fees(?)
I don’t see how they get host fees if they can’t demonstrate economic impact which in triathlon is done through mass participation, because this then moves into what we’d call the auto-racing category where it is professional only. They’d be like Formula 1 or Formula E here. But with 40 Athletes are there enough people that would travel to just watch a triathlon race? Probably not. So that eliminates Host Fees.

So Broadcast Rights or Subscriptions - Field Sports and Nascar dominates the rights space. I’m not sure what the number is that is required to make a difference for them from a sustainability track. The hope is that the US Market somehow falls in love with this and a broadcaster pays for it. OR, the interest takes off and you have 10k+ paying subscribers at like $100/yr. But this sport has a definite cap on interest so I’m unsure of the growth trajectory for PTO+.

Sponsorship - Again, similar to Ironman here and they chase new partners every year. I’m interested to see the evolution of this for the PTO, this is likely where they will have to earn most of their revenue.

So now let’s get into p&l…

But they have 5-7M/Year going to athletes in form of contracts, prize money, and bonus pool. Then they have like 40 personnel directly attached to the PTO name (I’m guessing some of these folks are contractors and not all full time) so that’s gonna be another 3-4M in overheard if I’m being generous. It may be more since their board is an executive board, or at least Kermode and previously Adamo were executive Chairmen. Then I’ve seen how many resources they’ve put on for a race. It was 2 Full Broadcast Trucks and 2 smaller trucks, 20+ cameras, drones, helicopter. This would run at least 1M/day. So if two days that’s 2M. Now do that 8 times.

But if you’re telling me that all the niche things in triathlon I should be happy about because they just exist. Well, Island House burned me. And been waiting on the next Sub 7/Sub 8 attempt.

I think they will eventually care about race registration, if this takes off. That’s sorta an “easy” money grab, especially if it takes off. But if you are telling me they NEED race registration numbers right now in order to have a 2-5 year run of this? No I don’t think that’s the case. I think they have the capital to give it a real “go”. Will that “go” make it? Maybe it does, maybe it doesnt (I’m in the it won’t make it category, but love the effort).

I’m still at a bit lost at “host fees” because for the most part, every PTO race has been attached to “big events” correct? The 1st PTO event is “piggy backing” off an Challenge / WT “regional championship” event at the Miami speedway 2nd weekend of March. Thus does PTO need to do it alone, if they have venues they can “piggy back” off of in this build up period (IE- pay host fee to get added to the schedule and the associated additional costs to said RD)?

It seems like the Las Vegas is going to be very much “PTO driven” event, but even the '24 schedule they are doing a ton of “piggy backing” off events. Which I don’t really think matters in the grand scheme of things because their bottom line is in the broadcast of the product, not in the health of the mass production numbers are (that is important for every other RD/race production company).

I dont think you can talk about sponsorship and include IM. IM doesn’t need sponsors like PTO does. But the PTO has a better “pro product” in terms of broadcast now and is the focus whereas IM’s pro focus is about 4th on the list of imporatance; so yes sponsorship/ads is going to be where this makes or breaks.

What about Island House burned you so much? That was from day 1 some billioniare wanting 20 pro athletes to play tri with him on some secret bahamian island, and oh I guess they were going to “broadcast” it. I don’t think anyone thought that was ever going to have legs. The sub 7 project seemed to be waaay more of a 1 time angle (especially now that the records were set), vs some sustainable “real attempt”.

That’s where I think this PTO adventure differs than the 2 events that seemed to “burn” you. Nothing about them was long term reliable, this is a real attempt at long term viable pro racing.

Make no mistake, although I am incredibly critical and cynical. I do want them to succeed. And succeeding isn’t where Ironman cuts back on pro prize purses either. Want more money and more pros able to live on triathlon.

That’s the tough thing with pro triathlon. Almost everyone to a fault thinks/knows the second PTO goes away, IM will almost for sure cut their “pro series” as well.

How to generate a popular forum discussion 101: instead of asking a question make a controversial or even a wrong yet confident statement. Kick back and watch a pile up of people rushing to tell you how wrong you are.

Make no mistake, although I am incredibly critical and cynical. I do want them to succeed. And succeeding isn’t where Ironman cuts back on pro prize purses either. Want more money and more pros able to live on triathlon.

Just replying in general.

From the dawn of time in this sport there have been races that sustain themselves on the entries of participants and from time to time, someone with access to deep pockets comes along, throws a large some at existing or new races, gets pros to be their slaves, makes a lot of noise, many pros go there. There is hype for sub 5 years then it all dies because the masses voted with their wallets towards other venues.

Each time I hope that we can launch the sport to another level

As much as most here hate Messick and before his time Yates, Silk etc, they collectively got that mass participation side “somewhat right” creating a sustainable biz model (well as long as all of us in 50+ keep racing and things don’t die when we can’t run, but that is another topic).

I really want the PTO series to sustain itself, but history says it won’t and it will dissappear off the map unless it closes the cost vs revenue gap (like all investor funded startups…I run one, I know my zero cash date to the hour, thankfully it is several years from now and hopefully can do the very same thing I want PTO to get to…self sustain).

Then all we will all see is the lineup for Ironman World champions from history. Lucy’s name won’t be on that title this year (and that is her choice). Someone else will win. Lucy will make more money this year, but she won’t have this championship and in ten years, no one will know what PTO was and she won’t be Ironman World Champion.

In the long run of life, money just comes and goes. You just have experiences to show for your path thru. I get that pro triathletes need to make money in a short career and they don’t have 30-40 year careers like the rest of us to work from time to time for less money for greater impact in the long run.

If we go with who shall not be named, it is certain he is more pissed about not having his 7 wins in France than the millions that went down the drain. In the long run for athletes, titles really matter no matter what you may say. There is a lifetime to make money (and probably far more than the pittence that either PTO or Ironman given out) as many of these athletes are reasonably intelligent and energetic.