Given the large sums of money folks drop on bikes, power meters and coaching, etc., why is it that more people do not go to a tunnel to get their “free” speed. Is it really the cost, or is it more accessablilty to a facility? What would it take to get you to a tunnel?
I’m in, if somebody else wants to pay for it.
What would it take to get you to a tunnel?
A pro sponsor!
answers one might think they would get, yet folks spend how much on PMs?, latest frames,…
puzzling
Wind tunnel time is how much an hour?
How many hours would it take to do a good test in one, checking power, parts, positions?
How much does it cost to GET there, with all the parts you want to try?
How much experience does it take to know when you are making a position change you can hold for race distance?
Its an expensive proposition to do it right. If I get near kona qualifying or something equivalent for shorter distance, I might cough up the money for some wind tunnel time.
answers one might think they would get, yet folks spend how much on PMs?, latest frames,…
puzzling
I won some wind tunnel time from ‘Bicycling’ magazine back in 2001, to the LWST at Texas A&M (whoop!). The reps from ‘Bicycling’ told me how good of a deal I was getting:
Free room & board (I paid for travel, but I’m only two hours from Aggieland)
Fitting by John CobbThree hours’ of tunnel time, including the smoke effect, at $500/hrBonus meeting of Lance Armstrong
Of course, I was too inexperienced of an idiot to truly appreciate what I was getting, but the experience was unbelievable. To paraphrase Ferris, if you have the means, I highly suggest doing it.//dhs
I don’t understand it that people will spend $3000 plus on a pair of wheels to save a few watts, when a good aero setup in a tunnel might save 50 or more watts for a much lower cost.
I guess the wind tunnel people just don’t have the marketing departments yet, they are too busy being engineers!
I have been working with a tunnel here in Australia with the aim of doing commercial testing, we have been testing elite riders for a few years now and would like to expand this, it is complex due to the high equipment and technical expertise costs, as with anything you get what you pay for.
That was the question…is it the travel costs, travel time, a self defeating attitude that you can’t get it done
How hard is it to go in with a plan? Make yourself a table of changes you want to try. Get the resultant drag values. Once you get back home, you will know the drag numbers for the various positional changes and can then see how that affects your power in your own backyard, so to speak. Some things might work for W/CdA, some might not. Some you might be able to adapt to over time. Point is, you could find out what about your position/equipment works for you or against you. You definitely would not want to go in with a “let’s see how this goes and adjust” mentality or you might never get there.
Maybe, you get to find different positions that optimize different race distances instead of a one fits all.
That was the question…is it the travel costs, travel time, a self defeating attitude that you can’t get it done
How hard is it to go in with a plan? Make yourself a table of changes you want to try. Get the resultant drag values. Once you get back home, you will know the drag numbers for the various positional changes and can then see how that affects your power in your own backyard, so to speak. Some things might work for W/CdA, some might not. Some you might be able to adapt to over time. Point is, you could find out what about your position/equipment works for you or against you. You definitely would not want to go in with a “let’s see how this goes and adjust” mentality or you might never get there.
Maybe, you get to find different positions that optimize different race distances instead of a one fits all.
if i were able to get into one this seems like the best way to go about it in a shorter ammount of time. maybe i am missing something though…
Given the large sums of money folks drop on bikes, power meters and coaching, etc., why is it that more people do not go to a tunnel to get their “free” speed. Is it really the cost, or is it more accessablilty to a facility? What would it take to get you to a tunnel?
Counter-question: Why is it that more people do not go to a “virtual” tunnel to get their “free” speed?
Why not field test? Gets you similar data, it’s free, and you can double the productivity by combining with a training session.
A teammate did a tunnel camp (with John Cobb) in the A&M tunnel. Let’s just say that, as an engineer with experience in a fair amount of testing in a variety of areas, I was a bit underwhelmed with the quality of data he paid for.
You definitely would not want to go in with a “let’s see how this goes and adjust” mentality.
On the contrary: I think that is precisely what one should do (assuming, of course, that you have done your homework ahead of time, and that you have input from an experienced “aero advisor”…which if you haven’t/don’t, makes the whole wind tunnel approach a rather expensive waste of time).
Why is it that more people do not go to a “virtual” tunnel to get their “free” speed?
Why not field test? Gets you similar data
Similar, but not identical (you can’t get data at controlled yaw angles), and such field testing is much more time consuming.
I will have to defer to you on this. My thought was that one not so advised might get misled chasing the tail of the dog.
I also thought that many folks here would probably not be interested in the detailed and time consuming nature of field testing. Too busy online here or doing a long workout routine to be bothered. I would have thought they would want the faster solution. That is not to say in any way that going to a tunnel is not a detailed proposition.
So, would you say my briefly described approach above would be pretty much worthless?
I had an idea a few months ago to mod a semi trailer into a portable wind tunnel (had it spec’ed and everything) and developed a design for a very quick yaw sweep protocol… turns out based on a survey of ST’ers that people just weren’t willing to pay the money needed to make that profitable, even if it drove to them…
I think a lot of people like to buy speed that doesn’t require THEM to change. I could be wrong… but anecdotal feedback from a few coaches indicates that many off their coached athletes do not follow training plans they are paying for.
Why is it that more people do not go to a “virtual” tunnel to get their “free” speed?
Why not field test? Gets you similar data
Similar, but not identical (you can’t get data at controlled yaw angles), and such field testing is much more time consuming.
I agree that tunnels are far less time consuming but work and family commitments mean it’s far easier for me to steal a couple of hours here or there than to schedule a day away from home. Elapsed time may be way, way, longer with field testing but the total number of hours spent isn’t always the binding constraint.
Why is it that more people do not go to a “virtual” tunnel to get their “free” speed?
Why not field test? Gets you similar data
Similar, but not identical (you can’t get data at controlled yaw angles), and such field testing is much more time consuming.
Let’s say you run a few configurations in the tunnel and find one setup (position+equipment) works better for one yaw range, another works better for a 2nd yaw range, and a 3rd works better for yet another yaw range. In competition you can’t get wind direction on the fly so you go with the setup that gives the best overall performance but which may carry a penalty is some yaw ranges. Field testing at least gives you the “aggregate” CdA, particularly if done on a looped course.
And besides, didn’t someone once say “training is testing, testing is training”? Same applies here!
“assuming, of course, that you have done your homework ahead of time”
Agreed, but easier said than done for the bulk of us with no tunnel experience, Andy. I’ve read and generally understand the principles and math behind the stuff. I’ve absorbed the wisdom of those of you who have significant tunnel experience too.
But I’d want to go in with more than the “70%” plan (homework). I’m just not sure I could do much better than that. (with the primary consideration being having a plan that maximizes the benefit for the amount of time/$ spent). I suppose the tunnel staff, probably the A2 guys for me since they are right up the road from Charleston, SC, has good advice and will assist, but I would rather ensure I was driving the time as much as possible, not them.
With $10k and a truckload of parts, I’m sure I’d come out just fine. But with $1k, my own gear and a few selected borrowed parts, I’d want to make sure I was testing the right things, given the limited amount of testing that is going to buy.
If you buy a new Blue Triad, you get a free hour of aero fitting at the A2 Windtunnel in Charlotte, NC. If I were in the market for a new bike, this offer would be hard to resist. As they say in their magazine ad (paraphrasing) ‘no fewer than 5 bike companies claim to have the “fastest bike in the world” but no matter how “fast” or “aero” the bike is, the rider accounts for about 85% of overall drag’
Anyway, here’s the link I found:
no many people spend $3000 on wheels
some spend $2000
others like me get used stuff and spend $400 =)
I don’t understand it that people will spend $3000 plus on a pair of wheels to save a few watts, when a good aero setup in a tunnel might save 50 or more watts for a much lower cost.
I guess the wind tunnel people just don’t have the marketing departments yet, they are too busy being engineers!
I have been working with a tunnel here in Australia with the aim of doing commercial testing, we have been testing elite riders for a few years now and would like to expand this, it is complex due to the high equipment and technical expertise costs, as with anything you get what you pay for.