I really don’t get it. Heras and Simoni are totally studly in their national tours and pretty well no shows at the Tour. Its not that they don’t want to do well at the TdF, they aparently do, but can’t seem to up their game at the TdF. Guys like Mancebo are thumped by Heras at the Vuelta or Basso gets hammered by Simoni in the Giro, but these guys actually haul ass in the tour.
Today’s move by Liberty Seguros was perfect. Reminds me of the days when Banesto dominated with Indurain. They could pull out victories any which way they could. This is why the Giro and the Vuelta are some much more exciting than the TdF. As much as I like Lance, his dominance has really taken away from the “excitement” factor at the TdF. Same as when Mark Allen was winning Hawaii 6 times.
I kind think both of them knew it would be difficult beating Lance at the tour so choose to peak in Italy or Spain. Or perhaps it is at the bequest of there sponsors? or maybe they think the formate of these race better suits them - like the shorter stages in Spain. I kind of wondered what effect Lance’s retirement would have on these guys - would they suddenly turn up at the Tour in there peak shape realising they could be real contenders?
…I think that even once Lance retires (if)…Heras and Simoni will still be lame at the Tour de France.
I do believe that the super small riders just don’t handle super long stages well and thus tend to do a bit better at the Giro and Vuelta. The “light big guys do better”. Lucho Herera, Andy hampsten, David, Miller etc etc etc never really did that well overall the TdF. Taking that theory further, aside from Welch, no really small guys have won hawaii. I just don’t think they can sustain the raw power output for long enough, partially cause they can’t store as much fuel in their bodies (I do agree that big guys also consume more, but they also have more body mass to “eat into”). Then again there are always exceptions like Pantani and Welch.
Interesting point on Hawaii, I remember reading somewhere that in a hot climate marathon it is very difficult for an athlete above a certain size to win. You would think that the heat in Hawaii would atleast even things up between the small guys and the more powerful guys like Norman. I guess running a 2:45 marathon at the end of an Ironamn is different to running a 2:10 marathon fresh.
{As much as I like Lance, his dominance has really taken away from the “excitement” factor at the TdF. Same as when Mark Allen was winning Hawaii 6 times.}- reply
like 95, where it took him 20+? miles on the run to catch hellriegel?
Hang on. Basso was at the Giro and TdF. Mancebo was 4th at the TdF. The point is that there are some big guns that show to the Giro and Vuelta and they can’t match Simoni or Heras at these events.
Different profiles at those events. I haven’t bothered with a breakdown but the giro seems geared towards pure climbers who can TT ‘a bit’. Shorter stages with more mountains, lesser proportion of TTmiles. Basso was trying for the win this year but got sick, with Riis telling him he could retire if he wanted. But he came back to win a few stages. It’s not like he was getting his ass handed to him on a platter. Bye the way Simoni did not win this year either, ‘Il Falco’ did. Chalk another major tour up to Discovery Channel.
I agree that Salvodelli won the Giro, but Simoni was the real stud at the Giro, shaking things up and a attacking all over the map. He was really the guy who “made” the Giro the entertainment spectacle that it was and in the end was seconds away form the the overall win. Enough to rank him as “studly” at the Giro.
Basso was far and away the class of the field at the Giro and, had he not been ill, would have ran away with an easy double-digit win. Simoni would not have been a story, nor would Savoldelli, had Basso stayed healthy. Other than those three, the rest of the Giro field could hardly be considered the ol’ “Heads of State.”
So, besides Mancebo, who probably peaked for the Tour and isn’t as strong now (and was no real contender in the Tour), who’s in the Vuelta that would’ve been a contender for the Tour? It’s a watered down field every year. Great racing, but not the absolute best riders. I do love the Vuelta, though.
I’m a huge Basso fan (check my posts from the Stelvio stage), but the bottom line is that Simoni thumped Basso at the Giro just like Basso thumped Simoni at the TdF. Shoulda Coulda Woulda counts for zero. Its the results when you cross the finish line. Yes, Basso won some stages, but he was not as dominant as Simoni because he tanked on the Stelvio. As they say in stage racing, if you have one bad day you can go from hero to zero. Ask Basso or Menchov. All this being said, Heras still has a week to potentially tank, but he has proven his studliness with 3 previous Vuelta victories.
The Tour is a completely different race. Every single rider at the tour has had to fight to get there, they are all in 100% top form, and a single stage win at the tour is nearly enough to retire on - how many times have we heard a rider with fabulous palmares state “this stage win is the greatest result of my career…”?
Every single day at the tour has enough riding on it to make or break a career - so the flat days are raced at the pace of a fall classic, and then it gets hard. Nobody at the tour is “gathering form for the worlds,” as at the Vuelta, and if they do the Giro/Tour double, they are usually peaking for the Tour - Simoni can (and did) win the Giro, and still be a dissapointment in the eyes of the Tifosi by getting schooled at the Tour.
The easiest transition day at the tour carries the prestige of a world cup win, and this is a tremendous weight on the rider’s shoulders. Most riders simply cannot handle the stress, mentally and/or physically. Those who can are a different breed, and they are all at the tour.
I think this is only a small part of the story - but I have to go …
When it comes down to it. Winning the Giro or Vuelta is like winning IMCdA or IMC…etc But, it’s not Kona. It’s great and fun to watch but it isn’t The Show.
At The Show all the big boys are there. They are all prepared. The stages are longer. They are riding tempo at 45/50 kph to get to the climbs (instead of 36kph like). Even without taking air that uses up lot’s of energy. I don’t think these guys can handle it. Heras maybe. Simoni not in my life time.
Look at Mayo last year before the tour. He actually thought he had a chance to win. After the big boys bitch slapped him all the way around Belgium and Northern France he had a hard enough time climbing into the team bus let alone the side of a mountain.
the bottom line is that Simoni thumped Basso at the Giro just like Basso thumped Simoni at the TdF.
I don’t think that is fair. Basso had stomach problems and was 1:26 up on Simoni at the end of Stage 13, in which his stomach problems started to kick in. Yes, he lost 40 minutes on the next stage because of the stomach problems, but it is incredible that he didn’t drop out at that point given he had no chance. And he still came back to beat Simoni in stage 17 and 18.
Simoni appears to have accepted that he is not a contender at the TdF in not even bothering to start this year. So Basso didn’t get the chance to thump Simoni. The home tour is always going to hold an extra element of prestige for the Italian and French riders respectively. The French don’t appear to have anyone capable of winning their ‘home tour’ though- it’s gotten too big and too international.
From Australia, ‘our’ riders have commented many times on the sheer scale of the TdF compared to the other grand tours. As others have said, everyone brings their ‘A’ team to the TdF, but the giro is a training run (for many). The Protour did appear to increase the competitiveness at the Giro, and ? at the Vuelta? though.
To 99 percent of the Italian riders, especially those on Italians teams, the Giro is everything. To them, Milan-San Remo is like the world championship and the Giro is the morst important race of the year. Unless you include Pantani, no Italian has won the Tour since Bartali in 1965. For a long time, a lot of good Italian riders didn’t even ride the Tour de France.
The Spanish have a much bigger focus on the Tour de France thanks to Delgado and Indurain, but since Big Mig, none of the Spanish have had the total climbing/time trialing package to beat Lance, though Beloki was remarkably consistent with three podium finishes.
In Heras’ case, I suspect some of it is mental. Since his 5th overall at the TdF a few years ago he has done nothing, but in Spain he seems to believe he owns the race and after yesterday, he may be right. Simoni’s problem is that he can’t time trial well enough to compete in the TdF. He might have won the Giro this year with a little better time trialing.
They are great riders and there is nothing wrong with knowing your limitations. Would you rather win the Giro or Vuelta, or kill yourself to make the top ten in the TdF?
I’ve got to disagree with most of you guys. I don’t think the biggest issue is the length/difficulty of the stages, though it could play a role. I also don’t think it’s because of the quality of the riders, though the Tour definitely has a deeper field at the front - It just doesn’t explain how a climber as strong as Heras can finish 42nd, losing 10 minutes, on the 1st real climb of the tour, getting beat by guys who aren’t even “climbers” in the process or how a guy like Menchov can finish 85th in the Tour and be vying for the gold jersey at the Vuelta.
It wasn’t like Heras was just outside the top 10 at Le Tour. He was almost 2 hours back and got beat by tons of guys who have no business beating him. This is the same guy who has finished in the top 10 twice. Also, there are three guys who finished in the top 10 at the tour who are getting rolled up by Heras at the Vuelta(one abandon). I think it’s all a question of “form” as they say. PED suspicions aside, I think that one area LA has one up on his opponents is his ability to truly come in to peak form at the right time. I mean, Lance at his best is obviously better than evrybody else at their best, but what impresses me most is his ability to truly be at his best come Tour time while others obviously don’t arrive in peak form.
I think these guys’ fitness is on a knife’s edge and that many of them are close enough in ability that those small peaks and valleys of fitness make all the difference. Just look at the results during the course of any given year. Riders will dominate for a couple of weeks, then be just average two weeks after that. Most guys’ results will be up and down during the course of the year. It’s obviously harder than we might think to time a peak to perfection.
As far as Simoni is concerned, I just feel like he is one of those riders who can’t expect to perform at his best in 2 consecutive grand tours. Though I don’t believe he could’ve won, I think he would have had a chance to be in the mix at Le tour if he didn’t race the Giro every year prior to the tour. Some riders can pull it off - Pantani, Basso(with the exception of one stage), Heras, actually…but most aren’t able to stay in peak form for 3 weeks straight having completed a grand tour a few weeks earlier.
Maybe Heras should race the Giro before the Tour? He seems to go better in his second grand tour of the year…
After the big boys bitch slapped him all the way around Belgium and Northern France he had a hard enough time climbing into the team bus let alone the side of a mountain.