Why distance per stroke?

Triathlon Forum
1

Can someone explain why maximizing your distance per stroke is so important when you would never try to run with longest stride possible or cover the maximum possible distance in a single pedal stroke? A lot of what I’ve read lately about track workouts advocates counting your strides per 400 and actually trying to increase your number of steps over the same distance by increasing your turnover, which requires shortening your stride.

Obviously, the big difference is one is in the water and the other two are not. But why should everyone want to max out their distance per stroke swimming when there are fast runners with both long and short strides and strong riders who push big and small gears.

2

It is a surrogate measure for swimming economy. Not the perfect surrogate, but a reasonable one.

If you look at the population of triathletes, the entire population, one of the observations will be that the folks taking 40 minutes to swim 1500 meters at a triathlon have shorter strokes than the folks who take 30 and the folks who take 20 have longer strokes than the folks who take 30 minutes.

And as we all know correlation proves causation.

Ok, maybe that’s not exactly true, but it seems to be that usually doing the things to make your strokes longer also makes you faster in a tri.

Not STRICTLY true, it can be taken too far and you’ll see lots of folks that do, but it’s a reasonable way of trying to improve for some folks.

3

The only way an analogy between swimming and running works is if you compare swimming to running on ice.

Once your feet stick to the road, you can start playing around with stride lengths. Until then, you are jsut trying not to look like Fred Flinstone running in place which what “distance per stroke” is aimed at preventing.

By focusing on distance per stroke, you are trying to maximize the “stick” you are getting and the amount of power you can apply over a given stroke cycle (ie how “long” the effective power applying portion of your stroke is). Neither of these are a partiularly big issue in running since your foot can’t move once it hits the ground and basic running mechanics don’t vary nearly as much from person to person as swimming mechanics do.

4

I agree with both posters. Swimming is alot like ice skating and you want to get as much out of each glide as you can.

That being said, keep in mind that the advice is given to correct mistakes that most people make. You don’t want to glide as long as possible. You, instead, want to glide “the correct amount” to go as fast as you can with as little energy expenditure as possible. Most people don’t glide nearly enough when they swim, so they are told to glide more. Most runners, on the other hand, make their strides too long, so they are told to shorten their stride.

In the end you want to find a happy balance that makes you effecient…longer strokes, shorter strides for most.

5

Actually the fastest swimmers don’t maximize thier stroke length, but they are longer than most ordinary swimmers. My theory is its tough to have poor form and a long stroke due to drowning.

Also the fastest distance runners have much longer strides than slower runners. The reason most mid pack runners are told to shorten the stride is because the overstride, meaning the foot is still going forward when it hits the ground, which causes a braking action. You want a long stride, but you don’t want to have so long a stride that you are braking with every footfall.

Styrrell

6

Because swimming is not running or cycling.

7

Haha, funny and so very true. Swimming is not even in the same environment as the two other sports.

8

Everyone is different. But, what I have been doing is trying little different changes to see what makes me the fastest. Over time, the clock gives direct
feedback to changes. I know I am finding that if I slow down a little and focus on stretching, catching, and giving a good solid high elbow pull,
I can be faster than a lot of folks I swim with. The problem is in short stuff, I tend to do well. It is as the stuff gets longer than their ability to hold
form better, flip turns, and better endurance, they will kick my butt. :o( Guess this is why I went back to shorter stuff this year.

I read a comment from Bill Rogers the other day in a running magazine. He commented that folks need to find where their strength is, meaning either shorter or longer stuff.
He commented in high school he ran on a relay event and got his butt kicked. But he said as the events got longer, the table was turned. So,
this is something I see very little about on ST. Forget all the hype that you MUST go long to do well. Find where you parents intented you to excel at.

Dave

9

Think of it this way: If two people are swimming at the same stroke rate (tempo), the person with the longer DPS will be faster. If you can increase your DPS while maintaining your tempo/arm-turnover, then you will get faster. My coach is a HUGE fan of DPS, and has us working on it weekly.

10

There is a direct correlation between how you “behave” in the water that will help to direct one toward the most effective choice of DPS or Tempo swimming.
By “behave” I mean there are 2 main factors that naturally influence your position. Your center of mass and density. Having an idea of these two will help to direct you. Other factors such as muscle fibre type, torso length (measurements), leg strength (kicking ability), flexibilty etc will play a role as well.

With most triathletes (due to leaner/heavier lower extremities) the tendency is for one to sink. What would classify as a low COM. For the most part, this starts to indicate that DPS would be less effective (as you tend to sink) so reaching longer and “gliding” more allows for that natural sinking to occur. In this case, you should be more interested in Tempo swimming or less time between anchor points. (vs DPS which is maximizing the anchor). Hence triathletes love to swim with wetsuits that assist in the minimization of the sinking ie slowing down.

I, as a coach and athlete, will tend to avoid DPS. I think it is crap and there is an entire syndrom known as Swimmers Shoulder from this theory. There are a few who are lucky enough to train and race this way… Not sure I know of a single triathlete (elite and other wise) who should.

All the best,

daved

11

Can someone explain why maximizing your distance per stroke is so important when you would never try to run with longest stride possible or cover the maximum possible distance in a single pedal stroke? A lot of what I’ve read lately about track workouts advocates counting your strides per 400 and actually trying to increase your number of steps over the same distance by increasing your turnover, which requires shortening your stride.

Obviously, the big difference is one is in the water and the other two are not. But why should everyone want to max out their distance per stroke swimming when there are fast runners with both long and short strides and strong riders who push big and small gears.
too bad most swim coaches don’t have the insight that you do. dps is an indicator of “efficiency”, not economy. and actually your comparison to running is valid, despite what others might say. the fastest runners have much greater stride lengths, but nobody says maximize your stride length to get faster. the whole trend toward increasing dps has led massive numbers of swimmers and triathletes astray. they do silly things to artificially increase distance per stroke thinking it will make them better. they chase a number instead of focusing on swimming better/faster.

12

B-$…

Are you arguing with me? What are you up to? Hey, thanks for chiming in on the DPS thing. It does make triathletes do some pretty interesting (read funny as hell) things.

talk soon.

daved

13

here’s some n=1 anecdotal evidence to back up what you said:

This year, I quit going for DPS and just swam a bunch more. I used to aim for 14-16 strokes per length in a 25 yd pool. After a year, I’m doing 18-20, and am 2 min faster per 1000 yd (still slow, my “PR” is 17:09). No clue what it means for others, as I’m in no way qualified to advise anyone on swimming, other than “get a coach”. FWIW, I’m more muscular than your average triathlete, w/ large leg muscles.

14

B-$…

Are you arguing with me? What are you up to? Hey, thanks for chiming in on the DPS thing. It does make triathletes do some pretty interesting (read funny as hell) things.

talk soon.

daved

haha. i was pleasantly surprised that you weren’t completely brainwashed during your time at the OTC.

working my arse off in school right now, trying to do some training and get ready for IM florida.

send me an e-mail and tell me more about RAAM.

15

What’s the mechanism by which long strokes cause swimmer’s shoulder?

What specific injury is swimmer’s shoulder?

16

swimmer’s shoulder is sort of a catch all term, but here is what dave is describing.

reaching long in front with internal rotation causes the rotator cuff tendons to impinge upon the acromion. this results in rubbing, inflammation, and even possible tearing. putting the arm in this extreme position of forward extension and internal rotation puts the joint in a position that makes it susceptible. some athletes will have a harder time than others because of anatomical variation of the size and position of the acromion.

17

So how is this fixed by having shorter strokes?

Is reaching long the way to increase distance per stroke?

18

if you don’t try and reach and “glide” as many would have you try and do, you don’t place as much anatomical stress on the joint and you avoid creating friction between the tendons and the bone.

reaching long is one way that many would have you try to increase distance per stroke. look at the TI garbage and that’s what is emphasized.

there are certainly other, better ways to increase distance per stroke, and that was my point. don’t focus on length for length’s sake. however, tell someone to increase their distance per stroke and they will probably start by reaching and gliding.

19

PLEASE NOTE MY USER NAME FIRST BEFORE READING Now I have absolutely NO business posting in a swim forum (thank God I remain anonymous), but, hopefully my views on the matter may help my fellow comrades who emerge from the water not with our heat, nor the one behind it…but, HOPEFULLY the one behind that. Anyway, I swim like a blind, 3-legged horse but have been “lucky” enough to be good friends with a former Olympic swimmer and several collegiate swimmers. Anyway, they would tell me over and over and over that my turnover was way too high and that I need to maximize my DPS and glide more. No matter how few strokes it took me to get across a 25m pool, they would say it was too much. It gave me a lot to think about as they would lap me over and over on our 500m swims or as I would be in a different zip code on our open water training swims.

The more I focused on DPS the slower I got, and, in our open water swims, I would go off course so quickly it was amazing! The poor navigation I experienced may have been because I tended to “glide” more on my right side as opposed to my left…nonetheless…I was in swimming hell. Then, just before setting fire to my swim gear, it hit me…DPS to me (this is where the advanced swimmers can stop reading), meant maximizing the distance using a consistent, rhythmic and correct stroke…regardless of how many strokes I took. When I focused on stretching, gliding, tucking, shrugging, etc, etc…my legs would drop, my elbows would drop, I would cross my centerline…everything seemed to be going wrong. So, I watched a few videos of Ian Thorpe and Grant Hackett (some good video of them on youtube) and it seemed to me, at least, that they had a pretty fast turnover themselves…Hackett, if I counted correctly, would go 32 strokes in a 50m pool in the 1500…obviously still on the lower side, but what an amazingly smooth and consistent stroke…shockingly high elbows on the pull!

So, burning that image into my head, I went out and managed to stay, yes stay, with one of the faster swimmers in our group for the first 500m or so of an open water swim and managed to bring 'er home with the second pack…I mean, normally I would go through one or two tidal changes during a mile or so open ocean swim…now I am finishing with a group??? Still not the lead group, but, a group nonetheless. I feel I managed to do this by instead focusing on a smooth, consistent stroke, high(er) elbows on the pull, and hip rotation to coincide with my pulls (which I never seemed to master when I focused on a lower stroke count, gliding). I managed to finish the swim refreshed, not sore nor especially tired…a stark contrast to my previous swims! Additionally, I managed to keep a tighter line and found the buoys on the first try!

Thanks to the previous posts on here claiming that long, slow strokes may not be the best…you made a believer out of me.