Why are you on drugs Scott Molina?

Triathlon Forum
23

Thanks for the Friel qoute. It seems amazing to me that you can crash for 2 weeks without rest and come back from it stronger. It is counter-intuitive to rest for a week.

From an earlier post:

But tell me this. Who on this board hasn’t taken nsaids for 2 or 3 or 4 days in a row.
I haven’t taken nsaids or similar ever due to normal training, not a single dose let alone for several days straight. I probably took them once to help heal an overtraining injury (used 1 dose in conjuction with ice and rest). Before you go down the route that I’m not training hard, my base periods build to 20 hours and I’ve run a handful of marathons so I’ve experienced some soreness.

24

I have a few comments on some of the posts:

I´m a great fan of both Molina and Gordo and only have praise for their coaching, staging Epic Camps and in their writing, telling it like it is. On the comments of this Epic being “too hard”, one must realize that the guys pushing pace like Björn Andersson and Clas Björling are superior and experienced athletes in their prime and, during a certain period like 12 days, absorb a huge volume AND some excessive quality/tempo. I know that they, and Gordo and Molina, are very aware of the risks of combining both intensity and volume at the same time but this is only for a very short period and followed by a recoveryweek. If you can bounce back from that kind of training, you will likely find yourself on a higher level of fitness. Too much and you go into overtraining

-However, training while sick or feeling ill is just BAD. 10 yrs ago, Swedens then best IM-athlete died during a workout. Autopsy showed multiple scars on the heart, very likely from several inflammations on the cardiac muscle from training with illness. There have been quite a few similar incidents in Sweden since then, a lot of them on highly trained competetive athletes and most of then have in some way been connected to training with illness.

TripleThreat wrote in his first post that he have had great workouts on days “he shouldn´t have trained” and if M Jordan can play basketball with the flu, “you can run a few miles”…My question is: Why would you want too? My notion of good training is training that ultimately makes you better, not training for the sake of it… The reason one can have a great workout even when feeling generally crappy is only because the body is sensing a coming on-slaught of illness and is on red alert, all systems mobilizing force to respond to the illness. That workout is just going to make it harder for your body to fight back from whatever is coming. Same goes with training while sick, if you´re lucky enough to not damage your general health, you´ll in any place prolong your illness

What is “too sick to train”? Any fever or sore throat is a no-no. Any feeling of general illness, unnormal soreness or fatigue or bad stomach is a no-no. OK for me would be a runny nose or a dry cough with no other symptoms. Do I want to workout or not? If I don´t, there´s generally something wrong. I´ve done mistakes in this matter many times in the past as I guess all ambitious athletes do but in hindsight the signs have been there every time. I´ve just not been smart enough to read them but as I grow older I hope I´ve developed my intuition more and dropped some of my ego:)

-Training with NSAIDs and caffeine. First, caffeine is off the IOC list of banned substances so I guess it´s OK to down as many Red Bulls as possible. I don´t think it is a very good idea to in the long run use painkillers on a daily basis. I´m sure Molina doesn´t do that either, but the guy knows what will help him through a rough patch in training and isn´t shying anything away in his trainingreports. I mean, the guy´s been doing triathlon since 1977 or so for Cripes sake so I wouldn´t question his judgement on this matter of what he´ll need to get through yet another 7-hr day during Epic. However, I don´t think it´s alltogether healthy and I doubt that he would recommend that to any recreational athlete either.

Desert Dude has a post referring to people he knows working with NFL teams and them being on NSAIDs. I doubt that any of those guys would come even close to passing a regular drugtest. NHL, NFL and pro-baseball is a far cry from triathlon (I hope!) in terms of illegal substances. It´s not a coincidence that these organizations have their own pathetic drug-policy where they supposedly do tests but as long as their athletes aren´t submitted to open testing by IOC/WADA or others it´s a true joke-

All in all:

-train with a purpose, a reason. Train to excel, don´t train for the sake of training

-balance fitness and health. don´t let health take a backseat to fitness

-never base training on prestige

25

Why would you want too?

It actually helps me get over the illness. I don’t know if it’s the light sweat or the increased blood flow (or both) that gets rid of some toxins or what. Obivously, MJ does it for a different reason than me.

Again, I’m talking if you have a cold, some fatigue, nothing that has been “hanging around for a coupla weeks”. I’m not talking if you have mono, an incredibly swolen throat, high fever, excrutiating pain, etc. We’re talking about traning while “sick” or “ill” without defining sick or ill.

I’m cautious about taking a day off everytime I don’t feel “right”, b/c my body will recognize that and always seem to have a “reason” for me not to train. My cutoff is a fever. If I have fever, I won’t train.

As for pain killers, I’ve taken a few before a game where my arm was killing me (baseball pitcher). Why? Because I’d rather be on the mound with a sore arm, then on the bench with a sore arm. Granted training for myself and playing for a team are 2 different things.

I haven’t been sick in like the last 2 years or so. If I were sick, it would depend on how sick I was, how close I was to my main event, and my current rate of progress (If I’m gaining like crazy, I keep training, If I’m maintaining, I’m more likely to consider a day off)

Edit: I also think a lot of it depends on your personality. I like to “bully” myself … especially when I feel I’m starting to get sick, I give myself the ol “Oh don’t give that I’m gonna get sick crap, boo-friggin-hoo” and train (most likely at a lower intensity). I guess I came to a conclusion, that I’m never gonna feel perfect, so if I don’t feel “abosultely horrible”, I can train.

I love this quote, “The last time I felt 100%? Probably when I was 17” – Curt Schilling

26

Some interesting quotes that I think speak for themselves:

“The rest of us had at least 5 hours of ride time. We stopped en-route to try and get Marilyn some antibiotics but the country bumpkin doctor she got in to see in the small town of Turangi wouldn’t prescribe any for her. That got me more than a bit PO’d. What’s she going to do? O.D. on them? It was a good lesson for me to have a more complete medical bag with me on future camps. We don’t have the time or patience to be messing around with dumb shit backwoods doctors.”

“We had a bit of cool rain by the end of the ride, too. Some ran off the bike, some didn’t. I went straight for the medication”

27

You can read my answer at this address:

http://www.coachgordo.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=50831

I’d like to read what you and some other people who know Scott and Gordo think about all this. Unfortunately, Gordo erased all the posts on this topic from his forum.

Why would he do that?

28

rich

the link is already down. Would you be willing to give us the short version here?

thx

29

OK, since this a kind of a flame post anyway, I have a different question: Why are you so slow Scott Molina?

Really, its a bit of a puzzle. He is one of the all-time greats in tri. He still trains at unbelievable volume and intensity, at least judging by all of the camps he runs/participates in. He’s not that old.

And yet, he doesn’t even crack the top 300 overall at Kona and is only 24th in his age group. I know what you’re going to say: “Oh yeah, what’s YOUR time at Kona?” Try to avoid that temptation. Just answer the question: why so slow?

30

I was trying to be a smart ass and didn’t do a very good job of it. I was quoting KP who said that he had posted about this on Gordo’s forum and put a link to his post there. I was just saying that I would like to read what KP and some other people who know Gordo and Molina personally (which I don’t) or were at the camp (which I wasn’t) had to say about the issue but I couldn’t because Gordo had taken down all the posts on the topic. I was serious that I was interested to hear their take on the issue. I was being sarcastic when I said “I wonder why he did that?” because I think its obvious that Gordo erased the posts thinking he was protecting his friend and business partner (Molina).

Obviously, there are a lot of people here who know Molina a lot better than I do but I can’t imagine he would have wanted the posts about him pulled (or even cared what 99% of the people reading gordo’s forum thought of him). As near as I can tell, he likes being a little controversial and is completely unapologetic for who he is. That’s why I think it was lame for gordo to pull the posts (and why I took an, admittedly weak, jab at Gordo for doing it); I think Gordo was trying to protect someone who didn’t want or need protecting, particularly from a semi-anonymous post on an internet forum. But who knows, Gordo is friends with Molina and I’m not. Maybe I’m way off base and it did bother Molina.

31

My guess would be that Gordo erased the posts from his forum because, as advertised, his forum is supposed to be a “flame free zone” and the posts were causing a major forest fire (not surprising given the title)

My $0.02? Spare me the “english is not my first language” cop-out. Uli knew he was being controversial and defamatory, hence the “apology” in the body of the original post. He then had the gall to post again, on the same topic, on Gordo’s forum. He got flamed pretty good for that one as well. Another “spare me” comment (my 2nd): Uli’s assertion that NSAIDs and caffeine are “drugs”, i.e. performace enhancing and immoral - give me a break! The NS stands for “non-steroidal”, and I don’t know of any NSAIDs that are on WADA’s banned substances list. Caffeine has just been removed entirely from WADA’s list.

If I was Molina I would sue Uli for defamation (yes, I’m a lawyer), but my guess is Scott will just blow it off as the ramblings of an idoit (which is perhaps the correct, and more mature position).

mp

32

Not to defend Scott, but I am. There are countless guys who are super fast over up to 6 hours and can train day in and day out for 6 hours. I know that I am one of them (well, not super fast for 6 hours, but much better relative to my performance in the 8-10 hour range). Racing for 8+ hours is another story. Granted, Scott Molina in his day won all the toughest courses in Tri: Hawaii, Nice, Embrunman, World’s Toughest Tri. I am pretty sure, the guy has more mileage in his legs then all the posters on this forum combined…and then some. So while he may be able to go pretty good in training these days, once you get over 8 hours, he may not be as fast anymore. Or maybe he’ll show us yet, having not really popped a good race in his last two Ironmans. I hope to see Scott Molina go well under 9 hours again.

Hey, at least he is out there duking it out after this many years. The guy blazed the trail in this sport, exploring, refining and defining what it took to actually get good. In his day, the guy swam the mileage of an elite swimmer, biked the mileage of an elite biker and ran the mileage of an elite runner and would race every weekend all over the US, putting together a killer winning streak of USTS races posting times that would win most ITU World Cups today.

The words slow and Molina do not go together. Most mere mortals would have broken down a couple of decades ago (and there are a few of them), in trying to keep up with the man.

33

“We had a bit of cool rain by the end of the ride, too. Some ran off the bike, some didn’t. I went straight for the medication” <<

Just to venture a guess, but I’d bet money “medication” means a number of things–including massage and mother’s milk (beer). Or Sam’s chocolate chip cookies.

34

Scott ain’t slow - last year at the Boulder tri, right after the CO Epic Camp, he comprehensively thrashed a competitive AG field, second place more than two minutes back. I suspect the problem is durability, not speed - after several decades of high intensity and volume of running, everyone breaks down. The only exception I can think of is Carlos Lopes - and even then, he was running track, not road or marathon, until quite late in his career.

35

In response to

Another “spare me” comment (my 2nd): Uli’s assertion that NSAIDs and >caffeine are “drugs”, i.e. performace enhancing and immoral

Hello, NSAIDs and caffeine are drugs. I take it that courts, along with general society, no longer believe that words have definite (no pun intended) meanings.

From dictionary.com
drug
n.

    1. A substance used in the diagnosis, treatment, or prevention of a disease or as a component of a medication.
    2. Such a substance as recognized or defined by the U.S. Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.
  2. A chemical substance, such as a narcotic or hallucinogen, that affects the central nervous system, causing changes in behavior and often addiction.
  3. Obsolete. A chemical or dye.
36

US society in general has a very lax relationship to medication, so it shouldn’t surprise us that this reflects in sports and specifically triathlon. Advertising for pain killers in a sport magazine (as in “triathlete”) I would think would be considered by most a big “No No” here.

Not that there is no misuse of pain killers here, but at least it is not considered normal practice and “healthy”. Advertising is limited in most countries in Europe and even for non-prescription drugs there are typically restrictions on the amount you can buy at one time.

And no, I’ve never taken NSAIDS while training, the one occasion I had to (on prescription) take some for a couple of days, I naturally did not train.

Simon

37

Hello, NSAIDs and caffeine are drugs. I take it that courts, along with general society, no longer believe that words have definite (no pun intended) meanings.

Hello! Please note that in my original post I did not state that NSAIDs and caffeine are not drugs, I opined that using them is not immoral or wrong, which is what Uli implied in his original post (note that I put the word drugs in quotes).

It is common knowledge that when you accuse an endurance athlete of being “on drugs” in the current political climate, you are referring to illegal, performance enhancing drugs, which NSAIDs and caffeine are not. There is a big difference between having a few cups of coffee and an ibuprofen and being on EPO or HGH.

In addition, just to reply directly to your point, no, words do not have definite meanings separate and apart from the context in which they are used. Words mean different things to different people, and have different meanings in different contexts. Note that dictionary.com provided four different definitions for the word “drug”. The applicable definition depends on the context in which the word is used.

mp

p.s. If you are going to use an online dictionary, at least use oed.com.

39
  1. you (and hopefully no one else on the camp) train on pain-relievers

You know well, that training so hard when you’re sick, can easily kill you. And you also know that you cheat your body when you take Ibuprofen/ Aspirin/ Caffein Pills, just to endure more training.

Hi Uli,

I really don’t understand your points about ibuprofen/apsirin, and caffein pills. First of all, they are legal…so why not use them to your advantage. Their consumption might be an ethical question to you, but I really don’t get you.

What do you not like about caffeine? just an update but they recently took caffeine completely from the doping list. So you can now consume it in unlimited amounts…doesn’t mean the more the better…but here some basics about caffeine: CNS stimulant, aids in fatty acid mobilization, etc.

I also consume ibuprofen, especially when I train long and hard. It’s not about the pain reliever. Read more about the active ingredients and you’ll see that it’s a anti-inflammatory as well. But then again you don’t have to use it let the injury run its way and be out for a couple of weeks. Why not? Why train at all?

take it easy,

Daniel

40

I also consume ibuprofen, especially when I train long and hard. It’s not about the pain reliever. Read more about the active ingredients and you’ll see that it’s a anti-inflammatory as well. But then again you don’t have to use it let the injury run its way and be out for a couple of weeks. Why not?

Well for starters

  • it’s unhealthy (side effects, ulcers and similar stuff)

  • it’s dangerous (you might be developing a chronic situation or/and masking other pains that are telling you that something is really wrong)

  • it’s totally unnecessary (given a proper training regime, pain killers shoudn’t be necessary in the first place, accidents can happen, but a bit of extra rest has never hurt anybody)

Simon

PS: usual disclaimers about not being a MD etc. apply

41

The quote about the dumbshit backwoods doctor who wouldn’t throw out antbiotics to some passerby’s (without knowing any pre-existing conditions, prescriptions, allergies, etc) says quite a bit.

I printed out the epic camp stuff and I’ll read it shortly, but there’s not too many way s to interpret that quote or take it out of context.

Hopefully some backwoods, Barney Fife in Mayberry, dumb shit cop doesn’t pull him over for running a stop sign. Heaven forbid.

The mentality is not surprising … as I have said in the past … it seems to be (from what I have read, heard, and seen) quite common among the elite of the elite. Just finished Lance’s first book … and he’s got the same attitude/mentality. I like it, but it can cross the line from time to time.

42

Putting aside legal and ethical issues, I enjoy the elegance of getting everything my body needs from non-drug sources. One of the reasons so many of us do this sport (remember I said just one of the reasons) is for the great health benefits.

I really get a kick out of the fact that I eat food from as natural sources as possible. For example, brown rice rather than highly processed rice., lots of raw fruit and vegetables, homemade whole wheat bread instead of the useless crap from the grocery store, etc. It is also encouraging that I get 100% or more of the RDA just from my normal food intake.

For recovery I prefer homemade over Endurox R4. Endurox is a great product and there is nothing wrong with using it, but there is just something beautiful in the elegant simplicity of eating the equivalent from relatively natural food sources.

Instead of NSAIDs, how about an ice bath after a hard workout? Consistent stretching also reduces dependence on drugs.

There is nothing wrong with principled use of NSAIDs or even occasional caffeine use (i.e. grab a coke if you are lagging on a long ride - you get as much from the sugar as from the caffeine). However, who would argue against the elegance of non-drug use?

43

The funny thing is that “Going Long” has a small chapter warning about the secondary and long-term effects of NSAID’s.