What is there to disagree with? The data is the data. Believe it or not. You can see from their data that there was a very small trend for increased energy cost outside vs treadmill as the speed increased but it was not significant. 1% is the best adjustment for all speeds but 2% may be better at higher velocities but you probably need a bigger N to sort that out.
What is there to disagree with? The data is the data. Believe it or not. You can see from their data that there was a very small trend for increased energy cost outside vs treadmill as the speed increased but it was not significant. 1% is the best adjustment for all speeds but 2% may be better at higher velocities but you probably need a bigger N to sort that out.
Math suggests the study is flawed. It’s impossible for there to not be higher air resistance at higher speed, so a constant grade won’t overcome the delta. Having said that, the granularity they used is likely not precise enough, resulting in their sweeping statement. It’s like the cop with the radar gun saying “you’re speeding” but his radar gun says you are going somewhere between 65 mph and 100 mph, but he does not know what number you are closer to so he just goes with his “above 65 setting”…but there are a whole slew of numbers in between 65 and 100 just like there are between 1% and 2%…they just did not have the right tools for their study to measure correctly.
Agree study was pretty useless.
6min? no way to reach steady state at high speeds and 18.5kmh is high speeds for most runners.
The protocols were designed for convenience more than anything, not to tease out the real effects.
They would have chosen 18.5 because that was a common top speed for less than research grade treadmills until recently.
Running at a speed where your gait changes is bloody hard and runners avoid it.
Treadmills force you to run at that speed if it happens to be set at that.
The co-ordination and energy requirements go all over the place at these awkward speeds.
It’s like adding two and 10 together and getting 112, nobody has checked to see if their results are even in the right ballpark.
Count me in. When I run at Ironman pace (just over 12kph) I wonder how I ever manage it in a race! HR again similar, but just feels like harder work.
Agree study was pretty useless.
6min? no way to reach steady state at high speeds and 18.5kmh is high speeds for most runners.
The protocols were designed for convenience more than anything, not to tease out the real effects.
They would have chosen 18.5 because that was a common top speed for less than research grade treadmills until recently.
Running at a speed where your gait changes is bloody hard and runners avoid it.
Treadmills force you to run at that speed if it happens to be set at that.
The co-ordination and energy requirements go all over the place at these awkward speeds.
It’s like adding two and 10 together and getting 112, nobody has checked to see if their results are even in the right ballpark.
Running at high speeds is “connecting” a series of bounds, which inherently means a compression phase (deceleration) at the front end, then an acceleration phase at lift off. While in the air outdoors there is a deceleration as you coast through the air resistance. On the treadmill you don’t have a deceleration in the air because the air resistance is like having a perpetual tailwind at whatever exact speed you are running. Of course most of this does not play out when I am jogging around at 11 kph, or around 6.8 mph which feels way harder than it does on hard ground (for me). I think you nailed it with stride assymmetry and lack of linear momentum helping smooth things out…probably like riding on rollers in a wind gust vs riding on the QueenK in a wind gust. Riding on hard land would be a lot easier to put out the same power than trying to do it on rollers when a wind gust hits especially at big yaw.
My reply is to no one in particular. I just jumped on at the end.
Count me in the group who works harder on the treadmill to run slower (if you believe the calibration). At xxx bpm, I run faster, outdoors.
Now…I’m ignorant as to what it means on my 920 that it clicks out a mi. before my treadmill does (on run indoors mode). I have no idea how my Garmin is figuring distance on a treadmill. I do not use a footpod.
You need to focus more when running on the treadmill to keep from falling off. You have to focus to stay on a very consistent pace.
Both of those cause more “effort” on the treadmill.
Outside you just run, no worries about falling and slowing down or speeding up 10/15 seconds per mile for a few feet is not a big deal.
I don’t have a good explanation for this and, frankly, thought my treadmill just wasn’t properly calibrated but now I’m intrigued after reading this thread. Since the beginning of this year my “easy” runs indoors have been at a 10:00/mile pace with an average HR of ~130. If I go outside and run at the exact same RPE and HR my pace drops to 9:20/mile ¯_(ツ)_/¯
For whatever, reason, I find that when I run on the treadmill for the same effort as on “hard land”, I am moving around ~10% slower. It really does not matter which treadmill, I am just slower on the treadmill than at the track. I have not run much except on the treadmill all winter. I only started really shuffling/jogging/running after > 1 year break this winter. and almost all the running is on treadmill. I did a few outdoor runs, but with the recovery from a disk-nerve issue, the softer surface of the treadmill is easier on me.
In any case, the last two weekends, I headed to a local indoor track and was surprised by my times (not that they are that fast, but way faster than on the treadmill). For example, 120 seconds per 400m is 5 min per kilometer. That’s basically 7.5 mph. On the track this speed feels like jogging even with my limited strength/range of motion in my left leg.
On the treadmill 7.5 mph or 12 kph feels like a pretty decent clip. I would not be able to keep this up for a long time (like 20 minutes) on the treadmill. On the track, 96 second lap is 4 min per K pace or 9.3 mph/15 kph. This feels like a steady clip, nothing killer on the track but on the treadmill 9.3 mph/15 kph feeling quite hard. At this point, I have not gone that fast on the treadmill YET, but at at the track I was actually get a decent amount faster without trying “that hard” (my cardio is good for me from a lot of super hard swimming so I did not want to overdo it).
But this is not really new for me. 10 mph used to feel like a full out sprint on the treadmill. This is only 90 second per 400m which was not that hard in the past! 10 mph/16kph would literally feel like 80 second per 400m for me. I could barely stay on the treadmill for 80 seconds at that pace, but running on hard ground no problem basically going 80 second 400m pace which is 18 kph. Unless I am going pretty easy, the treadmill speeds vs “running on hard ground” really diverge.
I can only attribute this to a less “hard” push off on the treadmill since the belt is going at constant velocity under your body, but on hard ground you are doing a slight deceleration on landing and pre loading/compressing, allowing for a harder push off (unlike running like the road runner with the legs spinning like the road runner).
I remember Allan Faulds talking about doing some short treadmill intervals at 11-12 mph a few years ago and feeling totally off. 12 mph is 3 min per K pace.or 72 seconds per 400m. He said something along the lines of being able to run around that fast for 400m on the track, but unable to do that for the equivalent of a lap on the treadmill.
I don’t run on the treadmill but I feel the same way about the indoor bike trainer vs. outdoor cycling. Im always amazed at how much easier it feels to ride outside at the same effort than indoors.
I am also going to take wild guess, but I THINK if we got to ask this question to both Chrissie Wellington and Mirinda Carfrae, you might hear Chrissie say that she feels no delta treadmill to outdoors, whereas Mirinda probably does. I’d put Chrissie in the “road runner” style runner with legs spinning under her, while Mirinda in the “gazelle” bounder category. My feeling is that the more you trend to one side or the other the treadmillworks with your natural mechanics or changes your natural mechanics.
There is a famous video of Mo Farah on the treadmill managing only a 53:32 10 mile tempo run. His quote afterwards: “that was hard.” The video really made big news on Letsrun since everyone imagined a tempo run for Mo would be about 50:00 with him being capable of a 45-46 min full out 10 miler. The Letsrun gospel at the time (Dec '15) was NO WAY will Mo get another Olympic double since he can only run a 53:32! How wrong they were-- I guess maybe Mo is slower on the treadmill too!
I feel like I have a harder time maintaining pace on a treadmill. I do some tempo runs on a treadmill from time to time and keep the incline at 2%. My biggest issue is I am naturally more tense and less relaxed on the treadmill because of the spacing. Running fast outside is more meditative in that my body gets into a groove and I am less concerned with being being too far forward or popping off the back of a treadmill.
There is a famous video of Mo Farah on the treadmill managing only a 53:32 10 mile tempo run. His quote afterwards: “that was hard.” The video really made big news on Letsrun since everyone imagined a tempo run for Mo would be about 50:00 with him being capable of a 45-46 min full out 10 miler. The Letsrun gospel at the time (Dec '15) was NO WAY will Mo get another Olympic double since he can only run a 53:32! How wrong they were-- I guess maybe Mo is slower on the treadmill too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5UlhFD5gZw
Another case of ‘bounder’ vs ‘spinner’?
A couple observations from running on my personal treadmill.
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I use a foot pod and then pay attention to the pace I’m running using my Garmin 910. If I’m running close to the pace I calibrated my Garmin/footpod (6:45/mi) the pace on the treadmill tends to be pretty close. If I’m running much faster or slower then the calibrated pace the delta between my Garmin and treadmill is much larger.
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Again using the footpad to determine pace (running at the 6:45ish pace). If I try and emulate how I run outside (cadence, foot strike, push vs pull, etc.) the pace comparing treadmill vs. Garmin is much more accurate, if I stray from my form (I feel like the treadmill makes me pull more for propulsion than outside, cadence tends to be lower for me on the treadmill, etc.) the pace has a larger variance.
My Conclusion: my treadmill form tends to be different then how I run outside this causes my pace to be quite a bit different on the treadmill.
I haven’t attempted to calibrate my footpod at a faster or slower pace and then compare to the treadmill. I suspect that if I did this assuming I run at the same pace and use the same form times would be similar.
I use HR for the majority of my running on the treadmill and RPE for faster intervals where HR won’t work.
I have this same issue. When I set my Garmin 925 and food pod, it consistently shows me at a faster pace than the treadmill. It seems that my turnover is a bit higher on a treadmill which may cause my Garmin time to be faster than my TM time (guessing here). I always feel that my perceived effort (for what that’s worth) is more inline with what my watch is showing vs what the TM is showing.
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I have never had a single treadmill that has ever felt slow to outdoors. In fact the exact opposite is true. Every treadmill I have ever used feels effortless compared to outdoors. I don’t run these days at 0% so raising the incline levels it out, but at 0% the treadmill is supposed to be easier than outdoors.
Research shows you need a 1% grade to = same cost as outdoor running.
That 1% grade is technically to overcome the effect of wind resistance, but this is incorrect the faster you go, in theory you need more incline to make up for the increase in wind resistance (it is dramatically higher at 20 kph vs 10 kph). But if anything the lack of wind resistance should make treadmill running faster at the same perceived exertion which is the case for Thomas, but not for several people who answered on this thread (taking out all the treadmill calibration stuff).
http://www.runnersworld.com/newswire/biomechanics-expert-debunks-treadmill-running-myths
I feel like I have a harder time maintaining pace on a treadmill. I do some tempo runs on a treadmill from time to time and keep the incline at 2%. My biggest issue is I am naturally more tense and less relaxed on the treadmill because of the spacing. Running fast outside is more meditative in that my body gets into a groove and I am less concerned with being being too far forward or popping off the back of a treadmill.
+1
treadmill running is much harder for me than track or outside, because I have to concentrate hard to stay on the treadmill…
this has become worse the older I get for some reason.
Mostly do hill repeats on treadmills now, get a good workout without having to attempt going fast.
Has anyone done a bunch of treadmill running with a Stryd? I would be interested to see what that said.
For me, I always feel it takes a tad more effort on the treadmill.
FWIW, My foot pod calculated speed on the treadmill is usually around :20-:30 per mile faster than the treadmill calculated pace.
I’ve skimmed the thread, so please excuse me if this has been stated:
But, it appears the missing factor is ‘what are you using to report your speed back to you while on the treadmill?’
The treadmill itself is not correct. I have been using a Garmin footpod for some time now on the treadmill and it works near-perfect. The outdoor vs indoor heart rate and perceived exertion is the same at the same given pace outdoors vs the treadmill when using the track-calibrated Garmin footpod for pace.
Note: my Stryd sensor, which I love for power, reports a pace nearly identical to the pace my treadmill is reporting, but which is slower than my Garmin footpod by a consistent 1min/mile, e.g. I can go outside and cruise at 6:45 pace. If I run at that same PE on the treadmill, the treadmill screen and Stryd sensor report ~7:45 min/mile, while my Garmin footpod reports back… 6:45 min/mile. I run the treadmill at zero incline. Stryd tried providing a reason that the belt is slowing down upon landing and speeding up when the runner is airborne, but I’m not sure my Woodway, which has a belt that does not contact a landing plate and which is on bearings, slows down in the manner Stryd is explaining.
I can also increase my Garmin foodpod reported pace with a corresponding increase in PE and HR with the treadmill belt at the same speed… but I’ve discussed the physics behind that in another thread - bipedal locomotion speed is combination of forward displacement of mass, rate of change in support, and the length of time the grounded foot is on the ground (which shares a large amount of variance with the previous two variables, but which improves the model, never the less) - the moving belt on the treadmill is an added variable that decreases the weight of the first variable and increases the weight of the latter two variables, noting that the the longer the grounded foot is on the ground (the third variable), the closer the actual pace will be to the pace reported by the treadmill, and seeing how a majority of runners land way out in front of the center of mass and then push off, their actual pace and the pace reported by the treadmill are pretty darn close to being the same. Dev, this goes to your point of different running styles, but provides a bit more clarity as to what is happening with the two visual styles of running you are referencing.