Has triathlon ever used the cycling system of category ranking, or has it always been age groups?
One would think reducing the divisions to Cat-1(FOP) Cat-2(MOP) & Cat-3(BOP), male & female divisions, racing against each-other (self-seeded) regardless of age (or weight) would make for a more dynamic competition.
I can’t think of a single reason why this method isn’t superior to age grouping.
That’s funny because I can’t think of a single reason why the category method is superior to AGs in triathlon.
They’re both arbitrary distinctions of suspected speed. Unless you’re racing for the overall win, it’s all artificial ‘winning’ so what does reducing the # of cats from 10 or so to 3 do besides give less people a shot at an artificial award?
I see the argument for an elite wave (more restrictive than your front 1/3 Cat 1) to race for the overall and some races already do this. Anything else is fluff.
You forgot masters 35+ 123, master 4/5, Masters 45+, Masters 55+.
They’ve even combined these into Master’s A,B,C, and D.
What I see as a problem is that a lot of the USA Cycling categories doing is making bike racing marginally safer by not mixing in some super strong Wally with the Cat 2’s, where he’s liable to make some bone-headed move that’ll end the national champ’s season prematurely. Not so much a concern in tri though.
The current trend of adding elite waves in races is something I heartily support, as I’m tired of being stuck in the AG wave that’s some 15 minutes arears of the guys I’m really racing against, and having no CLUE how I’m doing overall until the paper is posted on the side of the trailer some 90 minutes post-finish…
If you’re interested in reducing fluff, fewer categories does exactly that, while eliminating the truly arbitrary deliniations, such as separating a 34- and 35-year old, and grouping him or her with a 30-year old. People of similar abilities compete with each-other, just as they do in the open/elite division. Why not apply that rule across the board?
Is it really inferior to a system that literally hands out trophies to people just for crossing the finishline with a particular date-of-birth?
Seems to me it makes no difference when elite waves are added. I know SO many elite racers who do AG’s and blow everyone away.
Just look at FIT last weekend with an elite group. Very few entered.
http://www.athleteslounge.com/results/event/2020/results.php
**Elite ** Bib Name City, State Age Gen Finish AG OA 1 Benjamin Collins Seattle, wa 24 M 01:51:23.5 1 1 605 Steven Sexton Davis, CA 25 M 01:53:47.9 2 2
**Individual ** Bib Name Team Age Gen Finish AG OA 255 Michael Ingardia ALCIS 37 M 01:55:22.8 1 1 266 Peter Kain Kain Performance 44 M 01:56:08.2 1 2 339 Mike McCarthy 39 M 01:57:02.7 2 3 80 Jason Campbell 46 M 01:59:15.6 1 4 597 Chuck Bunting Tribe 26 M 01:59:35.1 1 5 596 Mark Pietrofesa Kain Performance 41 M 01:59:39.2 2 6 372 Timothy Naylor Tribe 33 M 02:00:11.6 1 7 501 Kiet Tran 36 M 02:00:20.0 3 8 525 Kyle Welch SVTC & Tri Tribe 45 M 02:00:46.4 2 9
Dave
What are the standards to qualify? Work your way up like Cycling or time standards?
Time standards in a sport where the course might not be accurate is not fair. Also, how do you compare flat to hilly courses for Q time?
Placing and receiving points? Who would govern and administer that process? USAT? What if a race was not a part of USAT?
Time standards in a sport where the course might not be accurate is not fair. Also, how do you compare flat to hilly courses for Q time?
I agree, not to mention the difference between a sprint and an IM. Do you have different qualifications for the different distances? How do you move up at IM if you only do one a year?
Support Crew
The governing body would have to “own” the whole system of racing, much like USCF/USA cycling. I sure don’t see THAT happening any time soon.
The problem I could see is that more people will hit T1 together if the groups are speed based, instead of a more arbitrary selection like age. That is, if you have 1000 people in 10 waves of 100 people, and the waves are based on category, each of the 100 person groups is likely to hit T1 within a narrow window of time.
With 10 waves, mixing gender and age categories to get groups of 100 people, there will be a greater spread of people in the water, less congestion at T1, and a safer race. This also helps reduce drafting issues.
Paul
I never said I was interested in reducing fluff. They could hand out a hundred awards per race or they could hand out none. Whatever.
I also didn’t say cats were worse or inferior, just not any better.
People of similar abilities DO compete against each other - just look at the overall list. The people of similar abilities to you are the ones just above and just below you. They may be your age or different or may have “self-seeded” into the same or a differnt Cat as you. Again, whatever. If you want to know how you did against the people who are about as good as you… you beat some, others beat you (unless you’re the OA winner).
As soon as you make a cut and push the reset button on handing out trophies after the actual winners, you’ve made some sort of arbitrary distinction. By age or weight is as good as by a random self selection process.
As long as I can remember there has always been age groups in triathlon. I suppose in part it’s because it was patterned after running which uses age groups, not cycling’s category system.
I don’t see it changing, frankly I don’t care either way.
I know sometimes it’s hard for a 33 year old guy to finish 6th overall and not come away with “something” for his effort. I can’t blame him for feeling this way, all I can say is hang around another 20 years and things might get better. It’s always been that way, I didn’t like it in the mid 80’s when that happened to me.
Hello,
I believe that age group racing in tri was primarily pioneered by Lew Kidder, whom occasionally posts here. You’d have to ask him why he preferred it, but my opinion is that it works better. With age groups you identify the fatest athlete in the race, plus the fastest when you factor in age. Age slows us down no matter what.
With the cycling system of result based cats what are you identifying? Is the cat 4 winner a talented beginner or a very hard working dude with no natural talent or an enormously talented dude who slacks off or …
Styrrell
Fair enough on all counts. I suppose I see the cycling model as a means to a more competitive event, without taking the racing element out of it completely (which eliminating all non-elite categories would effectively do). For smaller, non-sanctioned events (which is 90% of my schedule), it would make for an interesting experiment. For large, high-demand sanctioned events - where the competition is usually tight - it probably wouldn’t make much sense.
Sphere,
Age and gender are hardly arbitrary distinctions.
I think your system has some merit regarding competetion.
I think on of the reasons cycling went to the cat system was everyone was racing at once in RR. So what the other person does can directly effect you. It’s easier and safer that way i think. Verses Tris that are more or less individual, so it’s easier to mix all the speeds and experience levels. I wouldn’t race a crit that was by age, i can just see some CAT 4 guy now going up the front in the first lap or two by riding over his head and causeing a huge wreck.
This debate comes up here frequently and one aspect that gets overlooked is that there is a fundamental difference between cycling and triathlon which favors categories in cycling and makes them unnecessary in triathlon. They are vastly different “games.”
In cycling, the physical interaction of the participants is fundamental to the nature of the game and the outcome of the race. A cycling race is much more like a basketball game than it is like a running race. Therefore, for participants to actually play the game, they must be roughly equal skill. If they are not, it is not enjoyable, for either the good racer or the poor racer. It just turns into a bunch of individual time trials. While safety is an issue, the real reason cycling has categories is so that with 5 laps to go, a group of guys can be plotting how to break away or where to place themselves for the field sprint. That’s the game and you can’t play it if there are not a significant number of people in the game who are about the same level. (also you can’t learn the game if are not in these situations hence the need to create categories that allow folks to gain this experience as they move up the ranks).
This is not at all present in triathlon. I can toe the line with a world champion and we can both have a very enjoyable and satisfying day. What I do does not affect him and what he does does not affect me. We can tabulate the times at the end and see where we rank but there is no fundemental need to have us set up so we can interact with each other to actually play the game. Now, it would be more fun to race head to head with your competition but as long as you have groups, there is always going to be someone in another group you want to go head to head with. The only way to get around that is to do a mass start but that has its own issues.
Age and gender are hardly arbitrary distinctions.
Men should compete against men, women against women. Age, on the other hand, has much less to do with predicting performance, and grouping people based on their age ensures quality competition as well as grouping by eye color.
The last event I raced (350 participants) was won by a 27-year old, with a 29-, 18- & 43-year old rounding out the top four. The overall woman was 45, a kona qualifier.
Cycling is one of the few sports that seems to be more ability based. Most othersports go simply by age-group. It would be a hrd model to apply to triathlon. What I would do away with in triathlon is all the sub Master’s age-groups.
Why does a 28 year old need to compete in a different divison than a 32 year old?
This is the way running used to be and still is to a certain degree.
Before there were even a pro category, it was all AG. You had to beat Dave Scott if you wanted to win your AG up until the mid 80’s… There was an overall, but you were also part of whatever AG you were in too. Once some money hit the sport, and there were real pros, then the distinction was put in place, but there have always been AG’s in triathlon since the 80’s…
Lifeguarding comps were more spread out like Fleck just pointed out for running, but has since gone to the 5 year breakdowns rather than the ten to 15 year… It’s about being more inclusive I guess, and gives us baby boomers something to compete for, and just not participate. You can always race down, but not up. I guess that is like the elite category, or even the pro one. Look at Karen Smyers, 47 I think, and still making money as a pro, and no one has won more national titles than she has over the years, man or woman… I think Molina and Kemper are tied for second…