Why a one should never speculate how a triathlete would do against a pro cyclist

From Velonews:

Rory Sutherland produced a NP on the final climb of 478 watts for 18.5 minutes. NP =6.3W/kg

Read all here:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/05/news/california-power-analysis-of-rory-sutherlands-stage-4-power-data_174455

Rory is a solid pro and produced an amazing performance. I’m friends with UHC’s manager and I know Rory has been working hard and is peaking just for this. That being said he and rest of the team have been getting their heads kicked in all spring in Europe. My point is this guy is not a Tour winner or World Champ, yet for some reason everyone wants to compare Triathletes to these guys. There is real power (no pun intended) in specificity.

Do tailwind climbs favor lighter or heavier guys?

Do tailwind climbs favor lighter or heavier guys?

If by heavier you mean taller, then on a faster climb the taller guys for sure. Less wind resistance. On a climb like yesterday is was probably negligible. It was steep. They averaged just over 10mph.

If you simply mean heavier and not taller then it is still about W/kg.

My guess is that W/kg still dominates just everyone gets a friendly hand on the back and that benefit biases itself out.

Yeah, posted that in the ToC thread about Henderson… people post numbers from entire stage-long files, and blather on about how anybody can hold 200 watts for 5 hours, but what’s missing are the numbers from the decisive moves. He DID look really solid out there, however, probably second most impressive to Horner, even if Schleck had a better kick.

Yeah, posted that in the ToC thread about Henderson… people post numbers from entire stage-long files, and blather on about how anybody can hold 200 watts for 5 hours, but what’s missing are the numbers from the decisive moves. He DID look really solid out there, however, probably second most impressive to Horner, even if Schleck had a better kick.

Yeah I was pretty impressed. I thought it should have gotten more of a mention in the press given that it he was the only non pro-tour guy up there (I’ll admit I’m biased). It looked like to me he was doing a lot of work to drag the group up to the attacks that Garmin was putting in. Schleck didn’t really move until the last few hundred meters.

About the only time I’ve enjoyed Sherwin and Liggett’s commentary in the last who knows how long was when they were cheering him on. They definitely highlighted his performance.

With a tailwind the relative wind speed will not change, however, you will be climbing at a faster rate and since gravity doesn’t change with wind the ratio of energy requirements will shift with gravity playing a larger role. I think it is something like that. Regardless if you can climb with guys who are 2.05lb/" at 2.3lb/" that is pretty impressive, though schleck was just on a training ride.

though schleck was just on a training ride.

Not sure about that since he stated he wanted to win the stage Wouter. I really think that there was no way he could go with Horner or he would have. Also Levi got popped pretty hard too. He tried to go with Horner and had a gap and then couldn’t maintain it. At that point it was all about the team.

rory is also one of the bigger guys in the peloton, which is why it’s impressive he climbs as well as he does. i can’t think of another guy anywhere in the world that’s going to put out more power than him up a hill, because almost nobody currently racing is that big yet can climb that well.

however…

it’s all about the distance. put rory, or any pro cyclist, out on the leadman course against a jordan or a chris lieto, it’s a different story.

you’re right, it’s about specificity. what jordan specifically trains for is riding in a TT position for many hours straight. there is no analogous training or ability that a pro cyclist can draw from.

He was also going back to the car to get bottles and said he didn’t think he would have the legs to do well yesterday. I would disagree about Levi. He knows he can out TT those guys so he has no need to go in the red at the risk of putting out a sub par TT or getting dropped at baldy. This is purely speculation obviously.

I figured he was either putting out serious power, or they weren’t going too hard. 478 watts answers my question! Without having a results list in front of me, I think he was the heaviest guy within a few mins of Horner. The TT will be very interesting.

Also, it’s interesting they haven’t had more success in Europe. Probably a combo of needing a little more team depth, and just acclimating to the different races. Lots of guys winning stages and races with power similar to, or less than Rory.

-Physiojoe

rory is also one of the bigger guys in the peloton, which is why it’s impressive he climbs as well as he does. i can’t think of another guy anywhere in the world that’s going to put out more power than him up a hill, because almost nobody currently racing is that big yet can climb that well.

however…

it’s all about the distance. put rory, or any pro cyclist, out on the leadman course against a jordan or a chris lieto, it’s a different story.

you’re right, it’s about specificity. what jordan specifically trains for is riding in a TT position for many hours straight. there is no analogous training or ability that a pro cyclist can draw from.

I don’t disagree with that at all. I guess the questions come up if “X” triathlete were to do “X” time trial all things being equal could they compete. The answer is no. Bjorn might be the exception as he has done quite well in his national time trial.

Again it does come down to specificity. Not many, if any, pro cyclist train that much volume in the TT position. And probably, as a consequence, could not hold it for 140 miles.

But as we’ve seen with the proper training excellent cyclists have made very good triathletes and obviously there has been notable cross over from our sport to the world of cycling.

rory is also one of the bigger guys in the peloton, which is why it’s impressive he climbs as well as he does. i can’t think of another guy anywhere in the world that’s going to put out more power than him up a hill, because almost nobody currently racing is that big yet can climb that well.

I was going to say “but Ryder” - but it looks like while they’re both 6’2", Rory’s got 10lbs on him. Impressive.

I thought I read or heard somewhere (look at my hard evidence!) that Floyd Landis could hold 500 watts for 30 minutes. HOW he was able to do that… well the public jury is still out on that one.

From Velonews:

Rory Sutherland produced a NP on the final climb of 478 watts for 18.5 minutes. NP =6.3W/kg

Read all here:

http://velonews.competitor.com/…-4-power-data_174455

Rory is a solid pro and produced an amazing performance. I’m friends with UHC’s manager and I know Rory has been working hard and is peaking just for this. That being said he and rest of the team have been getting their heads kicked in all spring in Europe. My point is this guy is not a Tour winner or World Champ, yet for some reason everyone wants to compare Triathletes to these guys. There is real power (no pun intended) in specificity.

No they don’t. Just like they don’t compare them to swimmers or runners. We all know bikers can’t swim or run, so there is NO comparison.

i don’t think there’s any doubt that top triathletes can’t best top cyclists in time trials unless, of course, the race spills over into the triathlete’s wheelhouse, which is ultra long distance timed racing. however, if you take a top triathlete and, say, put him on the track and ask him to run a 10k at, say, mt. sac relays, or penn relays, he’s going to do pretty well. this, because a top ITU triathlete will step onto the track and run a 28:30, which is pretty damned good and will be very competitive.

now, will this beat a top runner? no, because the triathlete is still a minute and a half off. and what we have in the AToC are cycling’s analog to east africans. this race has an arguably better, deeper field than the giro going on at the same time (contador excepted).

i think what this means is that a rapp or a lieto or any triathlete who has bike racing skills will fare quite well against the middle of the field, not the top of the field. sure, the back third of the field is soft pedaling. but unless specifically told to soft pedal, this is a mid-packer’s opportunity to show that he deserves to be a protected rider in a future race, so i think the number of “soft pedalers” is exaggerated.

i’d expect a top long course triathlete, who’s a bike specialist, if he has good bike handling skills, to finish in the middle of the pro field, just as i’d expect a top ITU racer to hold the sport up well in a 10,000m. look here, this is the most competitive field in a 10,000m you’ll find this year on american soil. brownlee, gomez, et al, would not have finished last. this is the second flight of the 10,000, and i think a gomez or brownlee might’ve won it.

what you will never, ever, ever see, lance or no lance, is an ex pro bike racer finishing the hawaiian ironman in having posted the fastest bike split. this will never happen, unless pro bike racing is so far in that athlete’s rear view mirror that he’s really, for the majority of his professional career, been a pro triathlete (like a lieto).

no pro bike racer, after having finished a full pro bike race career, will ever be triathlon’s best bike racer. what this makes me wonder is, if a huge prize purse were put up for the purpose, who’d win a hard, hilly, 120-mile timed race. that’s a race i would love to see, and i don’t think a cyclist would win it.

My guess is that W/kg still dominates just everyone gets a friendly hand on the back and that benefit biases itself out.

Actually…a tailwind basically lessens the effects of aero drag, so working against gravity (i.e. W/kg) becomes even MORE important.

It’s the headwinds on climbs that is basically the thing that “evens” out the differences between the climbers and the rouleurs…

Do tailwind climbs favor lighter or heavier guys?

I climbed Sierra yesterday to watch the finish, and the wind didn’t matter one bit. It is so steep compared to anything else I have ridden in North America it is ridiculous. Was fun though watching people falling off their bikes all over the place. :slight_smile:

i’d be surprised if rory’s not more like 6’3". he’s got a saddle height, on his TT bike at least, of 82.5cm as i recall. he’s a big boy.