he just need to learn to rotate his hips and get the lower back inline with the upper back (and the upper back lower to the ground!)
And do so, of course, w/o losing too much power due to having his muscles operating at sub-optimal lengths and/or w/o adequate blood flow (the “occlusion hypothesis”).
tis true - which is why said rider would need to TRAIN in said position
FWIW, gd’s position above isn’t too far from his road position (actually the saddle is in the exact same place)… and if you rotate his upper arm down and bend his elbow to 90d that would put his hands about where the HED logo is on the side of the bars. and that is where his drops are (gosh).
anywho…last week he did 2x20s @320 so I would guess that his is going ok with that hip angle/knee angle etc.
g
p.s. sorry about the spelling error - I was actually going to correct it in the quote but forgot.
Why is that people often feel the need to try to justify their dropping out of a discussion by claiming that they have “better things to do”??
Sorry about “dropping out”, I have work to do… I will say, before getting back to work, that as important as aero is to our sports, power was observed while this fit was done and if we went lower he did not like to feel of the weight of his upper body on the bars and his power and speed dropped off too. I’ll keep checking in on this but I think we’ve probably hit all the points we need to make.
You’re comparing apples to oranges. The fit that we did for him was for a triathlon fit. I will acknowledge that there is a difference between a tri and TT fits. With a TT you can go for pure aerodynamics and drop him as low as possible to achieve a flat back. With a tri we err on the conservative side since the individual needs to be able to digest food in that position, run afterwards, etc.
I suggest that there is little beyond anecdotal evidence that an “aerodynamic” fit will preclude digestion, the run or the etc.
As for your comments on where he felt the most powerful
actually, that was your comment, I just quoted it.
that is usually a pretty good indicator that they are generating slightly more power in a different position.
I will have to agree with Jens on this one and say that any change in power would have to be measured in terms of weeks training with the position and in a real all out effort vs. watching a CT (trust me - I have one of those as well).
All of the athletes you named were time trialist. I didn’t see one triathlete named. Look at the positions of guys doing IM Hawaii such as Cam Widoff, Normann, Badmann and you’ll see differences in their position versus those focused purely on doing TTs.
Yeah, so? I am basically saying that isn’t it a sad state of affairs that despite the more open rules of triathlon that allow for more aggressive positioning with optimized aerodynamics, that the shining examples of people who practice taking aerodynamics to the edge are those that are constrained by arbitrary limits (80cm, 5cm etc)?
And to think of the time gains that could be had in an IMH distance event? If some of these positions save 30-40s over 40k, what about events that are 4 times as long??? Don’t the gains to be made here (for essentially free) warrant due consideration?
Or should you embrace the anecdotes and throw 2+ minutes out the window?
I realize this is an ITT. Are these mostly triathletes or roadies? What level - local/club, state, national?
Always hard to tell from static pics, but some look very good while more than a few look . . . well . . . how do I say this nicely, . . . not that great!
The position of the guy on the blue/black Cervelo… wow, Head In The Wind. You say he’s using the fit for triathlons… Drag legal ones? If so, I guess aero means diddly squat.
I don’t think that the majority of good aero positons are going to be comfortable to begin with… If you want comfort, grab a pipe, loafers, leather lazyboy, and the tv remote. If you want speed / better CdA to get off the bike into the run without wasting a bag-o-watts ploughing your positon with the CdA of the Disco Channel Team Bus, into the wind… Might want to train your body to be in that more aero position?
The position of the guy on the blue/black Cervelo… wow, Head In The Wind. You say he’s using the fit for triathlons… Drag legal ones? If so, I guess aero means diddly squat.
My first thought was “What a waste of a P2C”…then again, that may partially be the result of the fact that I’m lusting after P2Cs and P3Cs lately…well, to be more specific, I’m lusting after the drag savings of them
I think he was 5 or 6th. He’s actually 50+, but 45 is the oldest category they had. Do you know him? He’s a UAL pilot and a really nice, modest guy. He improved his position and gear this year and has posted some good results.
The thing I personally don’t like about this position is I hate having my head like this. You can’t wear an aero helmet with this exact head postion. When you put an aero helmet on, the rider will invariable have to contort his neck upwards to keep the tail of the helmet from being a huge aero keel. Keeping you head tilted up always ends up killing me, which then I start looking down to relieve the neck stress which negates everything. It’d almost be better to wear one of those velodrome aero helmets with no tail. Another feature that I don’t like is having to always look up with only my eyeballs. Gives me a head ache. For comparison, here is my position which leaves a little to be desired for sure. What is amazing is how much you can move around and hunch down when needed. It is easily possible to hunch down 2-4 inches on a long fast section and conversely “choke up” when there is a moderate speed hillclimb, etc. It is quite obvious that hunching down is way more aerodynamic, so this is where I prefer to ride. The two frame grabs have the same bike metrics, the difference is me moving my hands forward on the pads/extensions - E
Is he on powercranks? How come both legs are down?
That will probably be a real aero position esp. once he gets a helmet on. Will you have him do a CdA field test or something? If so, can you share the #'s?
Is he on powercranks? How come both legs are down?
That will probably be a real aero position esp. once he gets a helmet on. Will you have him do a CdA field test or something? If so, can you share the #'s?
bike wasn’t finished at time of pics…
yeah, field test to come (he is on srm also). he is a big kid @ 6’4".
I can probably back out CdA estimates after tmw’s 11k weekly TT
I can see that Michael has made a major change since that bike left the shop. The fit and set up was originally done with an Adamo ISM saddle which is no longer on the bike. Without the bike here to measure we could guess at its saddle position, but it does appear that it has been moved all the way forward on its rails. With that and where he is sitting on the saddle combined has moved him in towards the bars.
This guy is a physical trainer and well aware of his flexibility issues and his body overall. His flexibility, or lack of, comfort and the ability to see down the road were key factors is his bike’s set up. I too have to ride in such a position due to my lack of flexibility and no curvature in my neck. Mom must have dropped me a time or two too many on my head as a baby…
I’m also no wind tunnel but using the key things John Cobb taught me to look for, air is passing over his body well. Yes, he is not “dropped” and his head sticks up but you can’t just cram any old person into the positions you’d like to see. Trust me… or just ask my ex’s.
I tend not to spend much time in these forums and usually chose not to comment, as everyone seems to be the worlds expert here already. I prefer to spend more time worrying about my training, my family, my athletes, friends and generally being a good guy.
Is he on powercranks? How come both legs are down?
That will probably be a real aero position esp. once he gets a helmet on. Will you have him do a CdA field test or something? If so, can you share the #'s?
bike wasn’t finished at time of pics…
yeah, field test to come (he is on srm also). he is a big kid @ 6’4".
I can probably back out CdA estimates after tmw’s 11k weekly TT
curious why? does it matter in regards to my comments?
the answer is no - I dislike running, alot. But the first swim/bike/swim du you find, call me.
but I do coach triathletes and am more than intimately familiar with training and racing tri (I did try one once when I was starting out which only confirmed to me that the only good use of running is jumping barriers in cx!)
EDIT: BTW, note the relationship between Jens’ greater trochanter (which is about at the USPS symbol on his shorts) and his acromion process (which is about at the middle of the seam on his shoulder), as well as his overall thigh-torso angle.
It’s only fair for me to point out that I *didn’t *use the true FIST position as spec’ed by Dan for this race: I switched to 165 ‘circus cranks’ and dropped the bars 2cm. I dubbed this the “FIST -3” position. FWIW, CdA field-tested at .205 (cv = 1%), though for this particular race it came out at .202 (I guess the wind was helping).
Greg,
Are you a triathlete by any chance?
Just curious.
John
curious why? does it matter in regards to my comments?
the answer is no - I dislike running, alot. But the first swim/bike/swim du you find, call me.
but I do coach triathletes and am more than intimately familiar with training and racing tri (I did try one once when I was starting out which only confirmed to me that the only good use of running is jumping barriers in cx!)
g
They already have Swim/Bike they are called Aquabikes and they are all over the place.
The thing I personally don’t like about this position is I hate having my head like this. You can’t wear an aero helmet with this exact head postion. When you put an aero helmet on, the rider will invariable have to contort his neck upwards to keep the tail of the helmet from being a huge aero keel. Keeping you head tilted up always ends up killing me, which then I start looking down to relieve the neck stress which negates everything. It’d almost be better to wear one of those velodrome aero helmets with no tail. Another feature that I don’t like is having to always look up with only my eyeballs. Gives me a head ache. For comparison, here is my position which leaves a little to be desired for sure. What is amazing is how much you can move around and hunch down when needed. It is easily possible to hunch down 2-4 inches on a long fast section and conversely “choke up” when there is a moderate speed hillclimb, etc. It is quite obvious that hunching down is way more aerodynamic, so this is where I prefer to ride. The two frame grabs have the same bike metrics, the difference is me moving my hands forward on the pads/extensions - E
I am not so sure that hunching down does that much. I look similar to your 2 positions and I have tried one then the other back and forth on a flat straight stretch of road a number of times keeping the same cadence and saw no change in my speed.
Have you tried this or maybe tried it with a power meter to be sure the input is the same?
“I switched to 165 ‘circus cranks’ and dropped the bars 2cm.”
had we chosen to use 165mm cranks during the fitting, i have no doubt you’d have chosen more bar drop. this is exactly the change rappstar just made to his bike over the past week and a half or so. long cranks are the bane of the TTer trying to get as aero as possible. instead of gaining torque you lose both cadence AND torque, except through a narrow band of the pedal circle.
i’ll be the 165mm cranks got you good power in the lower position, and it got you a 5rpm higher cadence.
