Given that (i think) WTC only self operates US/CAN races you’d be looking for event purchases similar to B2B.
From what I got from the CDA P&L was that there were profit floors that had some rather remarkable profit margin percentage targets. i.e. they would still make a hefty profit at 1200 athletes but it wouldn’t meet their internal targets (<-- my extrapolation).
#thanksprivateequity
I wonder how many greats races/venues has WTC taken over and then killed due to not meeting profit targets but otherwise would have continued under and independent RD?
Mooseman - RIP.
Timberman - RIP.
Timberman is mind boggling - they always had very large crowds there.
We stopped doing it in '09 - “it’s so crowded, nobody goes there anymore.”
2016 results show 2096 athletes.
2015 1859.
2014 2238.
For reference - 2009 had 2426.
If you can’t turn a reasonable profit from 2k racers every year, then that’s an RD problem, not the race or participants problem.
After having done some race directing, I can understand how 2k is the minimum.
Until you reach a certain number of participants, the profit is zero… or even a loss.
Basic costs to run an mdot IM must be massive.
I imagine costs to run a race in the USA are a fair bit higher than Canada though.
I also put on a number of events. Our largest Oly is 900 and our largest half is 700. We do it with a core staff of 5-7 people (additionally we have timers, an announcer and venue water staff, as well as aid station volunteers and kayakers). Compared to the WTC events it’s a skeleton crew. For a half M-dot will show up with 30-40 employees in addition to contracted labor (these figures are a few years old, but can’t imagine they’ve changed much). From what I got from the CDA P&L was that there were profit floors that had some rather remarkable profit margin percentage targets. i.e. they would still make a hefty profit at 1200 athletes but it wouldn’t meet their internal targets (<-- my extrapolation).
#thanksprivateequity[/quote
I have done similar races with a similar sized staff, you don’t need a giant staff if you know what you are doing and are efficient.
However, the local race company that produces the WTC races here in Madison are the majority of their crew. WTC sends less than a 20 person crew as I understand if they have local company producing the event. But I could be wrong, I haven’t seen those numbers, just hearsay from the local production company.
however having just been at IMC - with the full and half being run at the same time - this seems like a model going forward. I did the full and found having the half people out there was enjoyable - it brought total participation numbers up
It seems a lot here want the participation numbers high. Is there any races where they can have reasonable numbers (about 1,000) and still survive?
I stopped racing because the courses were too crowded but it seems that most people want that.
I have done similar races with a similar sized staff, you don’t need a giant staff if you know what you are doing and are efficient.
However, the local race company that produces the WTC races here in Madison are the majority of their crew. WTC sends less than a 20 person crew as I understand if they have local company producing the event. But I could be wrong, I haven’t seen those numbers, just hearsay from the local production company.
I’ve only (recently) been witness to WTC produced events. I’m not sure how they operate with pseudo subsidiaries. Can’t be a whole lot like that (in NA) these days?
Mooseman died thanks to Rev3 Quassy. That and the brutally cold rain year up there. 2011 maybe?
Timberman…from what I gather, the State Park was seeking a 2 or 3x increase in fees to use the park for the weekend, and WTC said “thanks, but no thanks.” Besides, the all wound up signing up for Maine 70.3…put on by the Rev3 folks.
FWIW, I’m nearly 100% positive that’s going to wind up being the model for most long-course events: license the Ironman brand for 70.3s. It’s a return to the Keith Jordan days!
From what I got from the CDA P&L was that there were profit floors that had some rather remarkable profit margin percentage targets. i.e. they would still make a hefty profit at 1200 athletes but it wouldn’t meet their internal targets (<-- my extrapolation).
#thanksprivateequity
I wonder how many greats races/venues has WTC taken over and then killed due to not meeting profit targets but otherwise would have continued under and independent RD?
Mooseman - RIP.
Timberman - RIP.
Timberman is mind boggling - they always had very large crowds there.
We stopped doing it in '09 - “it’s so crowded, nobody goes there anymore.”
2016 results show 2096 athletes.
2015 1859.
2014 2238.
For reference - 2009 had 2426.
If you can’t turn a reasonable profit from 2k racers every year, then that’s an RD problem, not the race or participants problem.
B2B full was killed after one year as IMNC. Made good money for the local YMCA for several years with roughly 500-700 full and 800-900 half before WTC got their greedy hands on it.
This doesn’t bode well for MD this year: http://www.noaa.gov/media-release/early-season-storms-one-indicator-of-active-atlantic-hurricane-season-ahead
.
Yeah, but being there last year for the course between the 2 races happening at the same time there were just too many people on the course.
The did keep the Half for this year and currently there is 1712 people signed up. It is going to be a busy course again, but luckily the bike is better than last year.
Yeah, but being there last year for the course between the 2 races happening at the same time there were just too many people on the course.
The did keep the Half for this year and currently there is 1712 people signed up. It is going to be a busy course again, but luckily the bike is better than last year.
Last year was an anomaly because ordinarily the half and full courses would have split around 30 miles in. Sharing the same course last year meant that the fast people in the half continued to catch the slow people in the full all the way to T2. But yes, this year will be crowded… not as bad as last year, but worse than any B2B year.
That’s not a venue suited to a Mdot-sized race. From the swim starts to the bike course to the T2 site, B2B was the right size given the staggered start and fast swim.
Notice page 15 of the 2017 IMMD Guide. 2018 is a go for IMMD. Looks like a late September race for 2018 though. Gerry Boyle put nay sayers to rest in the IMMD facebook group as well
Ask him about 2019…Next year is the final year of the contract. Not sure if anyone said Maryland would be gone before the contract ended, but they probably won’t sign a new contract.
Unless they adapt the new 70.3/Ironman same day course. Or numbers go way up in the next 2 years. I am pretty sure with the current registration number they are either losing money or barely breaking even.
From what I got from the CDA P&L was that there were profit floors that had some rather remarkable profit margin percentage targets. i.e. they would still make a hefty profit at 1200 athletes but it wouldn’t meet their internal targets (<-- my extrapolation).
#thanksprivateequity
I wonder how many greats races/venues has WTC taken over and then killed due to not meeting profit targets but otherwise would have continued under and independent RD?
Mooseman - RIP.
Timberman - RIP.
Timberman is mind boggling - they always had very large crowds there.
We stopped doing it in '09 - “it’s so crowded, nobody goes there anymore.”
2016 results show 2096 athletes.
2015 1859.
2014 2238.
For reference - 2009 had 2426.
If you can’t turn a reasonable profit from 2k racers every year, then that’s an RD problem, not the race or participants problem.
Mooseman was the perfect venue for a 400-600 person non WTC local event. I actually never got to to it as a local event and did it a few times as a WTC event, but it never really fit the WTC model and the course was “too tough” for the WTC 2000 person target. No problem getting 400 people who want a really tough course, but another 1600 people is a stretch.
Timberman I cannot understand why it can’t be profitable. Must be something related to fixed costs of controlling the roads and state park etc.
The venue may be part of the problem. It’s in the middle of nowhere. There’s not much for your family to do out there.
Lack of hotels in the vicinity. You pretty much have to drive 20-30 miles out if the few around the race site sells out. It’s not the easiest swim out there. It can be choppy with not so helpful current. The wind is a constant. People would rather deal with a little hill than to fight wind all day.
It’s also competing against Chatt and Louisville during the same time, for the same regional athletes.
Explain to me the reasoning for Maryland? I understand the weather concerns, aka the weather has been crap the last two years, but those are two extremely abnormal occurances. Weather is weather and you can’'t predict it. This is one of the easiest courses on the circut. Flat and fast. With a great weather race this year, I’d expect the numbers for next year to bounce back to 2k
I’d agree to most of this other than the wind. Look at IMFL, windy as h*** but people will go there for a fast time. As for the weather I say look at Eagleman. One fo the best 70.3’s on the circut and in the same exact location. I honestly feel as if weather hadn’t been the issue the past two years this race wouldn’t be on this thread. IMMD is comparable to IMFL imo.
Really? Just curious what the attraction of Eagleman is. I’ve done a couple dozen half’s and would say that Eagleman is the worst of them all. A flat boring course, very hot, lots of crowds and drafting. I would not even put it in the same league as Challenge Maine, Savageman, Kinetic or Waterman’s. Besides Maine all of those races are in the same general area {more or less)
Really? Just curious what the attraction of Eagleman is. I’ve done a couple dozen half’s and would say that Eagleman is the worst of them all. A flat boring course, very hot, lots of crowds and drafting. I would not even put it in the same league as Challenge Maine, Savageman, Kinetic or Waterman’s. Besides Maine all of those races are in the same general area {more or less)
The drafting does provide some gnarly bike splits if it’s not too windy. And deep down in places we don’t talk about at parties, I think a lot of triathletes are drawn to the Mdot for that.
And deep down in places we don’t talk about at parties, I think a lot of triathletes are drawn to the Mdot for that.
Solid and on point “A Few Good Men” reference.
I was a spectator at Timbermann last year. It just plain sucked from a spectator point of view. You spent all day compartmentalized in a parking lot for the entire duration, surrounded by a thousand cars and fifty over-flowing port-o-pottys. The traffic was horrible getting in and out, and there werent many hotels in the area. The town could not possibly benefit much from its presence there. The juice likely wasnt worth the squeeze. Having all those roads closed likely aggravated the locals and business owners-they made no money off the deal, and only got aggravation in return. Just my 2 cents.