Were we talking specifically about minorities? I thought we were discussing the irresponsible, leeches who live off of government entitlements and charity handouts because they are too lazy to take personal responsibility for their lives. And when tragedy does happen to them, they blame the very people/institutions who have supported them for much if not all of their lives.
"I’m an idiot huh? "
Clearly.
“Well your a naive utopian who has no clue about the real world.”
Scathing.
"Sure, there were probably many people who do not fall into my over simplified generalization, but there are many who are much worse, so I will stick with it because it probably averages out to be accurate. "
This is so nonsensical, it merely serves to reinforce my previous assumptions vis. your character.
“I deal with people like this…”
Nice.
"…on a nearly daily basis and not when they are in a good mood like when you deal with them or if you even do. "
Do you mean like the good mood of the gang-bangers that killed my best friend in a car jacking, or the heroin addicts I had to sweep out of the doorway of my city-center business? How about the 10 inner city kids that rolled me for my bicycle one night, or the guy that got eviscerated on my front porch during the local gang war? Is that who you’re referring to?
Yeah, clearly I’m living in an ivory tower - unlike worldly old Bruce Wayne…
“I deal with them when they are not putting on a nice show for those that will give them a hand out”
I’m sure that your interactions are, of course, in no way colored by your evident and abundant magnaminity…
" so you can take your happy go lucky everyone should be equal and personal responsibility plays no part in life goody goody shit elsewhere. "
Whatever.
Please, once again, display your exceptional skills of analysis to demonstrate where I stated, implied, or suggested any such nonsense…
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I guess we watched different video and read different news articles. The vast majority of the people I saw stranded were poor, african-american children, women, and elderly along with some white people who didn’t want to leave their pets. I will agree that there were some “lazy leeches” as well but in no way were they anywhere near the majority.
"Were we talking specifically about minorities? I thought we were discussing the irresponsible, leeches who live off of government entitlements and charity handouts because they are too lazy to take personal responsibility for their lives. And when tragedy does happen to them, they blame the very people/institutions who have supported them for much if not all of their lives. "
No, we were talking about the unfortunate victims of the catastrophe in New Orleans.
You made the assumption that these unfortunate victims are “irresponsible, leeches”, and he made the assumption that anyone who would profer such a statement must be a racist, rather than merely a classist, which is an entirely discrete and distinct form of ignorance.
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Do you mean like the good mood of the gang-bangers that killed my best friend in a car jacking, or the heroin addicts I had to sweep out of the doorway of my city-center business? How about the 10 inner city kids that rolled me for my bicycle one night, or the guy that got eviscerated on my front porch during the local gang war? Is that who you’re referring to?
Yes, and those that sit by and allow their communities to suffer these outrages rather than help remove these individuals and those like them who active destroy the communites and those who are too lazy to pick themselves up and allow their children to live in situations like this, which only perpetuates the status quo.
"Yes, and those that sit by and allow their communities to suffer these outrages rather than help remove these individuals and those like them who active destroy the communites and those who are too lazy to pick themselves up and allow their children to live in situations like this, which only perpetuates the status quo. "
?
Sorry, and meant in all sincerity, I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here.
Read literally, in conjunction with your earlier posts, and in the context of my post, this makes no sense, or is at least internally contradictory.
Either:
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you are an extraordinarily skilled troll, and this post is humorous, in a meta-commentary sense;
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you are trying to imply that I am in some way filling an enabling role in your warped view of “community,” but kind of missed the boat, language wise;
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you are trying to make a general point about your warped view of enabling activity within your warped view of community, and innappropriately tacked that on to an ongoing critique in a way that is inherently contradictory to your initial post.
Either way, that post is kind of a mess. Care to re-phrase?
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You made the assumption that these unfortunate victims are “irresponsible, leeches”, and he made the assumption that anyone who would profer such a statement must be a racist, rather than merely a classist, which is an entirely discrete and distinct form of ignorance.
Damn, I have to agree, that was pretty ignorant of me.
New Orleans happened, the levees broke, and how they broke is really immaterial to the core issue…and that is how we handled the ensuing disaster…which was not very well at all.
It would seem very material.
So you you would like to gloss the incompetence of all the nitwits that run Louisiana and NO and go right to blaming the aftermath on Bush Administration?
This has been gone over ad naseum with facts figures etc etc.
There’s PLENTY of blame to go around ranging from the individuals to the upper levels of government and pretty much everyone in between. What I never get about these types of situations is why people spend so much time trying to pin the blame when the energy could be better spent elsewhere.
I have no comment on the documentary as I haven’t seen it. But if it’s another film that simply strives to point fingers I have no desire to see it nor do I understand the point of making it.
~Matt
Well you know what they say - the first step to getting over a problem is admitting you have one :0)
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Do you know where these facts/figures are available online? I’d like to read a detailed analysis of the evacuation plan and a critique of its implementation.
How would you define “…a good portion?” I know people who stayed, and could have gotten out - one of them was in the public hospital that was (famously) evacuated only when the staff called in to the TV news in panic. Does that constitute “choosing to stay?”
If they were admitted patients in a hospital for a life-threatening or incapacitating condition, of course it doesn’t. That’s a pretty poor example with regards to my statement. I’m sure that was the case for many, and I’d put them squarely in the category of those who were unable to evacuate. Again, I think a full-disclosure critical analysis and timeline of events is required to make any educated statements about who did what and why. I’d be very interested to hear the victim’s stated reasons for staying and how they define “unable”.
"This has been gone over ad naseum with facts figures etc etc.
There’s PLENTY of blame to go around ranging from the individuals to the upper levels of government and pretty much everyone in between. What I never get about these types of situations is why people spend so much time trying to pin the blame when the energy could be better spent elsewhere.
I have no comment on the documentary as I haven’t seen it. But if it’s another film that simply strives to point fingers I have no desire to see it nor do I understand the point of making it. "
I would tend to agree with this general sentiment if the assigning of blame had actually occurred, but it hasn’t. There have been no “this is what went wrong, and this is whose fault it was” statements given at any significant level of government, and no one has been called on the carpet or taken to task for the mistakes made; this is unacceptable, and a comon theme in the management style currently in vogue at the highest levels of government.
How ironic is it that on this very thread I am being called an apologist for those refusing to take personal responsibility for their actions (or inactions,) while at the same time I believe that the refusal of responsibility is the single greatest problem - at an institutional level - that faces our country today. The USA is currently being run by a management group that professes to believe in a maxim of “personal responsibility,” yet refuses to accept acountability for their mistakes. In reality, these people are actually operating our country on a “private risk/public profit” basis, cashing checks drawn on the health and welfare of the citizens, to the benefit of what they sincerely believe to be the public - a public which, unfortunately, does not include the underpriveleged victims in New Orleans.
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"New Orleans happened, the levees broke, and how they broke is really immaterial to the core issue…and that is how we handled the ensuing disaster…which was not very well at all.
It would seem very material.
So you you would like to gloss the incompetence of all the nitwits that run Louisiana and NO and go right to blaming the aftermath on Bush Administration?"
I’m not the poster you were replying to, but a couple of points:
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No one in their right mind would try to ignore the incompetence and corruption at the state and local level that contributed to this disaster.
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The Army Corps of Engineers was responsible for the maintenance and inspection of the NO levy system
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LA and NO had been lobbying for many years, through their legislative representation, for increased funding related to levy construction, flood mediation, and etc. To say this was not supported in the current political climate would be an understatement.
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New Orleans happened, the levees broke, and how they broke is really immaterial to the core issue…and that is how we handled the ensuing disaster…which was not very well at all.
It would seem very material.
So you you would like to gloss the incompetence of all the nitwits that run Louisiana and NO and go right to blaming the aftermath on Bush Administration?
The blame for the incompetent response to this disaster lies squarely at the feet of the Bush Administration.
There are many weaknesses and infrastructure deficits in this country, heck if you don’t live on top of a huge fault line, you live in a tornado zone or a hurricane zone, or a flood zone, or a wildfire zone, or next to a volcano. New Orleans is not unique in this regard. California’s levees are in no better condition than those in New Orleans and we are one cold wet winter followed by a warm snap away from a similar catastrophe.
Disasters happen. We get earthquakes and hurricanes floods and fires. We know that they are coming, its how we respond to them that is at issue here. Sure New Orleans could have spent a few billion dollars they don’t have repairing the levees, we could also spend a billion gazillion dollars putting big rollers under California to stop earthquakes, and a few billion more putting a plexiglass dome over Manhattan to stop manmade disasters, and another few million putting the Missouri River underground to stop flooding.
a public which, unfortunately, does not include the underpriveleged victims in New Orleans.
Poor and Underprivileged are two very distinct and separate categories. The untouchables of India are underprivileged. How many of the victims of Katrina would you consider “deprived through social or economic condition of some of the fundamental rights of all members of a civilized society”? I’d guess not very many.
“If they were admitted patients in a hospital for a life-threatening or incapacitating condition, of course it doesn’t. That’s a pretty poor example with regards to my statement.”
- only if you think this was an exceptional (in the literal sense) example.
" I’m sure that was the case for many, and I’d put them squarely in the category of those who were unable to evacuate."
Yup.
" Again, I think a full-disclosure critical analysis and timeline of events is required to make any educated statements about who did what and why. "
Good luck getting that. Short of through an article of impeachment, you will never see such a document, as it would require a disclosure of just what BS was being fed to a President who could, with a straight face, state “Brownie is doing a hell of a job.”
"I’d be very interested to hear the victim’s stated reasons for staying and how they define “unable”. "
Sure thing. Air fare to NO is pretty cheap, and a couple of hours in a bar will fill you in nicely - short of that, go on line, look for a link to a LO newspaper, and have at it.
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"New Orleans happened, the levees broke, and how they broke is really immaterial to the core issue…and that is how we handled the ensuing disaster…which was not very well at all.
It would seem very material.
So you you would like to gloss the incompetence of all the nitwits that run Louisiana and NO and go right to blaming the aftermath on Bush Administration?"
Read Matt’s post and see if you still believe that.
"Poor and Underprivileged are two very distinct and separate categories. The untouchables of India are underprivileged. How many of the victims of Katrina would you consider “deprived through social or economic condition of some of the fundamental rights of all members of a civilized society”? I’d guess not very many. "
I wouldn’t, and I made that statement with a full understanding of the meaning of the term.
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“this is what went wrong, and this is whose fault it was” statements given at any significant level of government
Is this not what I just said? Why does someone have to say “Yep it was all my fault” in order to figure what went wrong. As stated there is PLENTY of blame to go around and I just can’t imagine anyone stepping up to the plate and saying “Yep all my fault”. We have blame going back to even the original builders of the dam, governor, FEMA, Mayor, Individuals etc etc. Who do you want to stand up and say “Me I screwed up!”
while at the same time I believe that the refusal of responsibility is the single greatest problem - at an institutional level - that faces our country today.
Not that I disagree with you but with everyone and there dog ready to string you up for even the slightest error I can’t imagine to many people chomping at the bit to take blame. The real problem is not that people aren’t taking blame and or responsibility, it’s that we refuse to allow people to make mistakes anymore and are vindictive as hell when someone does screw up. Governments and corporations are made up of people, people screw up. Crucifing them when they do only results in people no longer taking responsibility.
a public which, unfortunately, does not include the underpriveleged victims in New Orleans.
I don’t know seems to me that billions and billions are being spent in NO. Seems to me the numbers I’m seeing thrown around are in the neighborhood of 200 billion for NO. With a population of just under 500K just before Katrina, that’s roughly 400K PER PERSON. So what 2 million for a 5 person family “is not enough”.
I’m sure that the above numbers are likely high but I’m also sure that anywhere near those numbers is enough. In fact if the numbers are near 10% of that would we not be much better off giving a family of 5 200K and say “Time to move folks”.
Costs for the levie alone are supposed to top 20 billion. That’s 40K per person just for the levie. If indeed the people are so impoverished that they could not get a car to get out of NO, would they not be better off with 40K than a levie?
This may seem caloused but of the general public is supposed to take responsibility for these types of situations than we should make desicions based on what is best for the general public, not what teh people in the effected area’s “want”.
~Matt
"Is this not what I just said? Why does someone have to say “Yep it was all my fault” in order to figure what went wrong. As stated there is PLENTY of blame to go around and I just can’t imagine anyone stepping up to the plate and saying “Yep all my fault”. We have blame going back to even the original builders of the dam, governor, FEMA, Mayor, Individuals etc etc. Who do you want to stand up and say “Me I screwed up!” "
- When someone screw up, they need to face consequences, not the Presidential Medal Of Freedom. When “Brownie” gets cashed out, rather than thrown out, something is wrong. There needs to be some level of culpability for incompetence and mismanagement in government, otherwise you get… well, you get disasters. How many more do we need to see?
"Not that I disagree with you but with everyone and there dog ready to string you up for even the slightest error I can’t imagine to many people chomping at the bit to take blame. The real problem is not that people aren’t taking blame and or responsibility, it’s that we refuse to allow people to make mistakes anymore and are vindictive as hell when someone does screw up. Governments and corporations are made up of people, people screw up. Crucifing them when they do only results in people no longer taking responsibility. "
So, if that’s true, show me someone who got crucified.
We can impeach a president for getting a blow job, but “Brownie is doing a great job,” and “Mission accomplished” are OK? Why the hell can’t competence be the deciding factor in political appointments? I will tell you why - Consequences! You screw up, you get a raise. Screw up badly enough, you get the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
"I don’t know seems to me that billions and billions are being spent in NO. Seems to me the numbers I’m seeing thrown around are in the neighborhood of 200 billion for NO. With a population of just under 500K just before Katrina, that’s roughly 400K PER PERSON. So what 2 million for a 5 person family “is not enough”. "
It’s not enough because:
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The money is not getting to New Orleans.
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The competitive bid process has been derailed to the point that massive over spending severely minimizes the impact of the aid that does arrive.
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When projects that do manage to get built, get built, they are not targeted at the most needy segment of the population. As an example; housing relocation and rebuilding aid is specifically not being directed towards renters, rather it is giving a near 100% priority to property owners.
“I’m sure that the above numbers are likely high”
They are.
“but I’m also sure that anywhere near those numbers is enough.”
Maybe - if it got through the maze of beaurocracy, and was spent on worthy projects.
"In fact if the numbers are near 10% of that would we not be much better off giving a family of 5 200K and say “Time to move folks”. "
I would agree with this, and would probably prefer that this was done. Of course, this is very much akin to my favorite analysis of the Bush tax cuts, which went something like this; “Of course that big a tax break stimulates the economy. What people don’t like to admit, though, is that you would get a bigger economic bump if you merely dumped the same amount of money (in small bills) off the top of the Empire State Building…”
"Costs for the levie alone are supposed to top 20 billion. That’s 40K per person just for the levie. If indeed the people are so impoverished that they could not get a car to get out of NO, would they not be better off with 40K than a levie? "
Sure, the local people would be, but don’t forget (and rest assured, the government hasn’t) that rebuilding LA and NO is as much about maintaining the port infrastructure, and exte nsive oil interests as it is about anything else.
"This may seem caloused but of the general public is supposed to take responsibility for these types of situations than we should make desicions based on what is best for the general public, not what teh people in the effected area’s “want”. "
See above, and ask yourself this;
What could possibly be more important, for a government, than that it work maintain the health and well being of it’s citizens?
Fair warning: the content of your character is determined by your honest answer to this question.
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