This may build a bit on the Kansas sticker thread (Creationism vs Evolution), but this was a topic that came up the other night at dinner with some scientists from JPL: what would it take to disprove “God” and end organized religion in the U.S./world?
Would aliens landing do it? Discovery of hundreds of planets, all very advanced civilizations, none of which believed in religion?
Or are there just too many true-believers out there who will continue to believe regardless of whatever contrary evidence is put in front of them?
Belief in God isn’t about evidence, it’s about faith. Thus, nothing can disprove faith in God. Science and faith are two distinctly different things, based on vastly different, and apparently occassionally opposing, worldviews. Religious faith is more about an internalized ‘feeling’, and not about tangible evidence.
As I’ve heard it said before … Science and Theology answer two different questions.
Nothing can prove or disprove God.
It may be possible to disprove Christianity by proving that Jesus Christ was not crucified and/or did not rise from the dead.
In terms of “First Cause”, it would be much easier to suggest a “God” than to do away with teh idea.
If science could prove that the universe has always existed and did not have a “beginning”, then the idea that there is a Creator-Designer-Deity, etc would be in serious doubt (IMO).
Certain things could suggest that belief in God is much more “hope” than “faith”.
Amazing, I was thinking the exact same question today, and thinking of posting. My 4 yr old son was asking about our dog, because he is old and we may have to put him down soon, and we were discussing what “dying” is, and I said that he will go to heaven (I am an atheist, but this was the easiest explanation for now)
And I agree with the other post, you will never convince people that there is no god. Even if God himself came down and said “I don’t exist” people will still believe.
You can’t disprove items of faith. The only way we’ll know it’s not the Christian God for sure is when the world ends, if some other diety comes down and sends us all to Valhalla or something. There’s no way to disprove the idea of a deity altogether. If the Earth ends altogether and no god comes down, we’ll all be dead, and there still won’t be any proof one way or the other. You can’t prove something like “the universe has always existed” because even if you look back a zillion years, one could contend that creation happened a year before that. Aliens landing on earth doesn’t say anything at all about God, except that maybe he was at work in other parts of the universe too. I think it is more likely that science could prove that God or a god does exist than the other way around.
And I agree with the other post, you will never convince people that there is no god. Even if God himself came down and said “I don’t exist” people will still believe.
grin
That reminds me of someone on the internet that asked “Why aren’t there any non-believer accounts of the Resurrection?”
‘Common sense’ is socially defined. So, the common sense is belief in God, belief in a literal Virgin birth, and disbelief in evolution in any form.
I think what you mean is an empirical logical sense.
Religious belief can be rational, logical and intelligent. But it’s not empirical.
Why the hostility towards religious faith? Religion serves a social and cultural purpose. It is a very human behavior. Some anthropologists have argued that humans are evolutionarliy conditioned – maybe even biologically predisposed – towards religious faith.
Religious faith is not going away. If the popular polls are any indication (Newsweek, USAToday, NY Times, etc) America is becoming more religious. Also, the rise of global fundamentalism continues at a rapid pace.
That’s what terrifies me: increased fundamentalism of all sects. Fundamentalism (not just Islamic fundamentalism) leads inexorably to intolerance, bigotry, and ultimately violence.
OP: "what would it take to disprove “God” and end organized religion in the U.S./world? "
Ken: Common sense.
This is where we disagree on what common sense would suggest. IMO, common sense suggests that a universe that has a beginning, must have an “initiator” … a First cause (as it was called before). If the universe started, someone or something had to turn the key.
It seems to me that matter and energy have to come from somewhere, unless we can prove that they’ve always existed. Both ideas, they’ve always existed, and they don’t need to come from something, are ideas that I feel go against common sense as we know.
We could also get into the gravitational, nuclear, electromagnetic, etc constants that are “just right” to allow our universe to form and biological life to exist. We could just suggest that it is just one stroke of luck after another after another or come to reason that maybe something out there put everything in place for a reason. Granted the latter is scarier than the former, but that shouldn’t impede common sense.
One could answer the question, “What would it take to get rid of atheism?”, with a similar comment of “opened eyes”. =)
It’s rare that I agree with Brian but here, we do. I don’t believe the human mind is capable of comprehending the idea of “forever.” It’s impossible to imagine something that will always be, and has always been, because humans have no real reference if you take out the concept of time. If you try to imagine back as far as forever, you eventually get to some sort of beginning. If there was some sort of beginning, then there had to be something that caused that beginning. “Common sense” would seem to suggest that there is some sort of greater influence.
but man can be so arrogant as to believe that because we have self-awareness and are more “intelligent” that there must be an afterlife ruled by god to preserve us?
That’s my point. The concept of forever is so far past human understanding, that it’s not illogical to surmise that the influence that came before the universe is greater than man. I’m not saying the logical conclusion is that it’s a Christian God, just a higher influence. The point is that for something to have existed forever, it is beyond what humans can define scientifically. If it is beyond science, then it fits the practical definition of a deity. Maybe someday we will make some quantum leap in oru ability to understand the universe outside of time and space, but until then, anything that lives outside of those boudaries is, for all practical extents and purposes, a god.
More people in this country believe in a virgin birth than don’t; more people don’t believe evolution than do; shall I continue?
Sure, I’m happy to see you dig yourself deeper into that hole.
Common sense would lead one to believe that there is no God, huh? Startling, then, how close to universal religious belief has been throughout history.
People of faith hate it when I say this but religion is an incredibly useful tool.
I don’t see why people of faith would find that objectionable. I certainly don’t. Religion *is *incredibly useful. One might say that it’s high degree of utility is evidence of it’s truth.
Here’s something non-believers always seem to hate; the effect of a lack of religious faith is devastating to a people. Given the results of extinguishing faith in countries just in recent historty, you’d think atheists might be more careful in what they wish for.
