What the founding fathers thought about religion

http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm

Thomas Jefferson created his own version of the gospels; he was uncomfortable with any reference to miracles, so with two copies of the New Testament, he cut and pasted them together, excising all references to miracles, from turning water to wine, to the resurrection.

In his Notes on Virginia, Jefferson wrote:

    The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury to my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg 

Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestoes encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the War of Independence. But he was a Deist:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church

Regarding the New Testament, he wrote that:

I hold to be fabulous and have shown to be false

John Adams, the second U.S. President rejected the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and became a Unitarian. It was during Adams’ presidency that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli, which states in Article XI that:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,


Benjamin Franklin, the delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention. He has frequently been used as a source for positive “God” talk. It is often noted that Franklin made a motion at the Constitutional convention that they should bring in a clergyman to pray for their deliberations:

It is rarely noted that Franklin presented his motion after “four or five weeks” of deliberation, during which they had never once opened in prayer. More significantly, it is never mentioned that Franklin’s motion was voted down! Fine Christians, these founding fathers. Furthermore, the context is usually ignored, too. He made the motion during an especially trying week of serious disagreement, when the convention was in danger of breaking up.

About March 1, 1790, he wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion. His answer would indicate that he remained a Deist, not a Christian, to the end:

    As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...."  

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/founding_fathers_religion.HTM Much of the myth of Washington’s alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, “Life of Washington.” Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devout Christian, yet Washington’s own diaries show that he rarely attended church.

Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington’s initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.

After Washington’s death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington’s religion replied, “Sir, Washington was a Deist.”

As far as I have been able to ascertain, the only real difference between a “Deist” and a “Christian” is that Deists did not believe in the concept of the Trinity, esp., that Jesus was God and man and the son of the father–they viewed this belief as polytheism. Deists still believed in God and believed that Jesus did exist and was a great teacher and prophet–just not “God.”

So, if you are trying to argue that “some” of the founding fathers were not Christians–no argument from me. But, if you are trying to argue that the founders believed in “freedom from religion” vice “freedom of religion,” then I’m not convinced.

isn’t that a pretty huge, gigantic, deal-breaking difference?

also, the argument is continually raised that this country was founded on christian principles. this site and the quotes it provides argue otherwise…

What I don’t understand is the logic that says “since the Founding Fathers were religious that they intended religion to play a role in government”.

The Deists also believe that God has no role to play in world affairs. All supernatural events or miracles described in the Bible must be understood metaphorically, not literally. And prayer therefore has no efficacy in this world, except perhaps to make people get along with one another, or to feel better about themselves.

I think these are huge differences with contemporary evangelical Christianity (most of whose ideas originated in the 19th century, by the way). Franklin, Jefferson, etc., were children of the enlightenment, and had a deep faith in science’s ability to explain all phenomena. Anyone who described himself as having a “close personal relationship with Jesus Christ” would be a delusional zealot, in their opinion.

No, I don’t think it is a deal-breaker. It is understandable that the founders could have and did believe in Jesus’ teachings and philosophy without believing in his deity (Franklin’s writings indicate he was in this camp). After all, Jews and Muslims also both agree that Jesus existed and was a great moral teacher, but don’t believe he was the Son of God or Savior of Man. It is also presumptious to assume that all of the drafters and signers of the Declaration and Constitution were of the same mind about everything, particularly religion. Clearly they weren’t–there was much debate, bickering, name-calling, and in the end, compromise. To show quotes from four out of who knows how many is a little misleading.

But, since Thomas Jefferson is credited as being the principal drafter of the Declaration, it seems incredulous to me to think that God has no place in our country since the gravamen of the whole Declaration is that “our Creator” endowed us with “unalienable rights.” Why would he have drafted or signed it that way if he didn’t believe it?

Please note that I am not arguing that “this country was founded on Christian principles” alone. There were clearly many other influences–but the notion of a Supreme Being–above man and nations (on that order specifically, i.e., government serves man not vice-versa) was clearly a pre-eminent influence and one they never intended we forget.

the argument is continually raised that this country was founded on christian principles

Not necessarily Christian principles, but “religious principles”. IMO, religious principles are regarding “what is right and wrong” … not “who is God”. Religion served as a basis for morality, so we didn’t have 94 versions of right and wrong being weaved into government. One can look and see all of the things that is “wrong” according to Christianity and see that many, if not most, of those things are legal … and always have been. I don’t see where Christianity is being legislated … or really ever has been, even if that is the source of morality for some of the founders.

I don’t know that I would say “founded on” Christian principles, but certainly “heavily influenced by” would fit in many cases.


The same folks listed in this thread have other quotes from various sites, sources that seem to express the exact opposite sentiments. We need to clear this up. I’ll snoopr around and see what other quotes/sources we can come up with.

This site lists 5 guys. 5 guys. There are probably closer to 100 people that helped found our nation.

but in terms of deism vs. christianity the difference you highlighted is THE difference. it’s the fundamental tenet(christ as the son of god/heaven sent, etc.) of christianity that sets it apart from other religions.

IMO, religious principles are regarding “what is right and wrong” … not “who is God”. Religion served as a basis for morality, so we didn’t have 94 versions of right and wrong being weaved into government

I’m not sure… I think most people regardless of religion (or lack thereof) have a pretty similar idea of morality, at least on the big issues. I don’t think “thou shalt not kill” is a religious statement. I think it’s a statement of the collective morality that if human are going to live together in a society, you can’t do aorund knocking other people off.

Of the principles that the US was founded on, which do you think are really religious?

What I don’t understand is the logic that says “since the Founding Fathers were religious that they intended religion to play a role in government”.

Fair enough, but I don’t think that’s really the argument. The argument is that the Founding Fathers were religious themselves, and understood that Americans by and large were people of faith, and they assumed, therefore, that religion was a real and important factor that shapes public life. It isn’t controversial, they said so themselves.

What I don’t understand is this drive to argue that since many of them weren’t Christian, but Deists, that they didn’t found a Christian nation. Of course they didn’t found an officially Christian nation. But to argue from that fact that they didn’t expect or want religion to play a role in public life is quite the stretch.

But to argue from that fact that they didn’t expect or want religion to play a role in public life is quite the stretch.

I’m not aware of any writings where the founders state that they did expect religion to play a role in public life. More specifically and to the point, I don’t see where they expect it to play a role in government. I am aware of a very well known letter where Thomas Jefferson describes a “Wall of separation” between church and state, which is exactly how I believe our government should operate.

If people (not sure if this applies to you personally) are going to keep throwing out the “freedom of religion not freedom from religion” line, I’d expect to see some supporting evidence that the Founders expected that Americans will all be religious and that it’s OK to mix religion and government.

I think most people regardless of religion (or lack thereof) have a pretty similar idea of morality, at least on the big issues. I don’t think “thou shalt not kill” is a religious statement.

Whether or not most people have a similar idea of morality, irrespective of their religious beliefs, isn’t the point. (They don’t, by the way.)

The point is that it’s a matter of history that our collective morality is the result of religious beliefs. You can imagine, I guess, that it need not have happened that way, that our morality might, in some parallel universe, have been developed by an atheistic people, but the fact is that it didn’t happen that way. (And it’s never happened that way.)

The point is that it’s a matter of history that our collective morality is the result of religious beliefs

Or just the opposite…

If people (not sure if this applies to you personally) are going to keep throwing out the “freedom of religion not freedom from religion” line, I’d expect to see some supporting evidence that the Founders expected that Americans will all be religious and that it’s OK to mix religion and government.

I don’t remember if I’ve tossed out that line or not.

Supporting evidence? Of what, that they founders were aware that the nation they were creating was composed almost entirely of religious believers, mostly Christian? That they didn’t attempt to create a government as if that fact didn’t exist, or one that ignored the cultural reality of the day? Sigh. . .

George Washington: “Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

John Adams: “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Or just the opposite…

You’re saying that you think people develop a sense of morality, and then design a religion to match? Interesting concept, I guess, but flatly wrong, and revisionist history. Particularly in regards to the development of the Christian religion and its associated morality.

Of course they were religious by today’s standards, the year was 1776. They expected everyone around them to be religious as well. Think about the world in 1776.

The founding fathers knew that church, an institution of great wealth and influence at the time (with lots of blood at it’s hand, at the time and today), needs to stay away from the state, if that state is to be democratic, free state.

They expected everyone around them to be religious as well. Think about the world in 1776.

That’s exactly the point. The created the form of government they did under the assumption that the people to be governed were religious.

The founding fathers knew that church, an institution of great wealth and influence at the time (with lots of blood at it’s hand, at the time and today), needs to stay away from the state

What church are you talking about?

Those quotes certainly address my first question, but don’t say anything about the role of religion in government.

As to my “revisionist history”, I wasn’t specifically talking about Christianity. Do you really think in ancient times people were thought it was OK to slaughter each other until the great shaman/priest came back from the mountain/hallucinigenic haze/etc. and told them not to kill? Doubtful…

It’s not revisionist history because it’s not history. There’s no definitive evidence of how religion started in the first place and it’s relationship to an ordered society and its collective morality. What I wrote reflects my interpretation, and I think it’s the most reasonable on, but it can neither be proven or disproven.

Although I’m by no means an expert on all ancient world religions, I do think Christianity did introduce some moreal principles that were unusual (it not unique) at the time - especially “turn the other cheek” and “love thy enemy” - but the real basic tenets of no killing/stealing etc. are pretty self-evident even in the absence of religion.

Those quotes certainly address my first question, but don’t say anything about the role of religion in government.

Maybe I’m not understanding what you’re saying then. Can you re-phrase, for me?

but the real basic tenets of no killing/stealing etc. are pretty self-evident even in the absence of religion.

I don’t think they are. And even if they were, is it desirable to live in a society in which the collective morality boils down to “don’t kill each other, and don’t steal”?

I guess we’re back to this

What I don’t understand is the logic that says “since the Founding Fathers were religious that they intended religion to play a role in government”.

Fair enough, but I don’t think that’s really the argument. The argument is that the Founding Fathers were religious themselves, and understood that Americans by and large were people of faith, and they assumed, therefore, that religion was a real and important factor that shapes public life. It isn’t controversial, they said so themselves.

I’m not against religion in public life by any means. I’m strictly talking about government, which I believe should not be promoting any religion. (that includes a belief in God)

And even if they were, is it desirable to live in a society in which the collective morality boils down to “don’t kill each other, and don’t steal”?

Well probably not. But let me ask you this: which aspects of American public morality do you think comes specifically from religion? (the attitude of many towards homosexuality is probably one, but we can probably set that aside since we both know where other stands)