I have a long slow swim stroke with an average arm turnover rate of about 60-65/minute. My goal for this winter is to increase my arm turnover rate while maintaining good form. What is your arm turnover rate for sprint and 1/2 IM distance swims?
This is an interesting question. At a recent sprint while being passed in the water by a female TWO waves behind me, I could hear the splash of her arms and it was TWICE what mine was. So for about 50-100m, I tried doubling my turnover rate and I COULD NOT DO IT. It felt like my arms were windmills just going around and around completely out of control. Do shorter people have an easier time with faster arm turnover?
If you take a look at elite swimmers, you see that many/most of them have an turnover rate of 80+ per minute which seems incredibly fast to me.
I have recently upped my rate in open water, and the results have been favorable. I’ve come out much closer to the front than usual. I attribute it to the increased turnover. My turnover in the pool is a bit slower, though I occasionally do mix in some higher turnover efforts. As for the actual number, I don’t know.
I’ve never counted but mine is pretty quick. I take too many strokes per length in the pool and can’t seem to decrease it much without having my speed decrease a lot too. I think this may be the reason that I swim faster in a sleeveless suit for longer swims. My shoulders tend to get tired over longer distances in my fullsuit (I have a Desoto T1 so it is plenty flexible so that is not an issue). This is a good question to get me thinking about stroke count again for my next workout 
I think we’re talking about two different things. There is (a) stroke turnover (how fast you hear the splash), and then there is (b) strokes per lap. Logic tells me that a combination of a high turnover rate and a low stroke per lap (more efficiency) means faster swimming.
Correct, its all about finding the balance between DPS and Tempo. It really depends on your stroke. Obviously if you can bump your tempo up and keep DPS the same, you’ll go faster. 30-32 cycles per minute is no terrible assuming you’re under say 14-15 strokes per 25 yds. Janet Evans swam at over 45 cpm. The fastest Distance swimmer I’ve personally coached and used tempos with (15:35 miler) swam at about 34 cpm. He was about 6-2 and really lanky. I’ve coached some smaller females around 16:45 that were in the mid 40s. It’s tough to get over 36-38 without spinning and losing a lot of DPS. Most decent stopwatches have a tempo function and you can have someone take tempos for each 25 for a 500 to find where you’re efficient.
My 18 strokes per 25 meters combined with my 60-65 strokes per minute (30-32 cycles) means that I am typrically finishing the swim with two-thirds to three-quarters of the swimmers behind me. I have worked hard on getting my distance per stroke longer, however after watching the top finishers in the swim it seems that if I am to get significant improvements in speed it is going to have to come from a faster turnover rate. I can certainly understand why tall swimmers would tend to have a slower turnover rate than short swimmers. Given that I am of medium height (5’-9") I think my turnover rate is a limiting factor. I have experimented with increasing my turnover rate and it does help my speed, however, I do not have the endurance at this higher turnover rate to maintain it for long distances.
At 6’5, I have long arms. So, I have found that I am the fastest when I get good long reaches and strong long pulls. If I make my turn over faster, at the expense of
length, I go slower. So I see lots of folks who have quicker turn over than me, but I am faster by doing long strong pulls.
Again, everyone is different. And, what may work in the pool, does not mean it works in open water.
Dave
At 6’-5" your stroke length would be much longer than the norm which all things being equal will result in a slower turnover rate. Do you have any idea of what your turnover rate is?
I know we try to minimize our stroke count per 25 yards. Do not remember what it is, but I know it is much slower than others just by watching
them to my sides as we are racing.
I remember this one gal my daughter used to swim with. She always had a much slower turnover than the other kids, and I thought it was strange.
But, she would win most of her races.
Now, if I can keep my long stretches, and pick up my turnover a little, then I seem to really move, but can not hold this for very long.
I love it when we are doing some racing. I usually have 1 or 2 body length leads at the first wall, then they flip turn, I open turn, and I am behind. :o(
Dave
Yes, I agree and I don’t think turnover rate is something to focus on. For example, in a 25yd pool, I’ll swim ~13 strokes/length for 200yrd on 2:45 for a stroke count of 104 and a rate of 39. In a 50m pool, I’ll swim ~37 strokes/length for 200m on 3:00 for a stroke count of 148 and a rate of 49. Both swims have nearly the same average speed (~1.1 m/s) and identical effort, but stroke rates vary by 20%. Also, I could swim with greater effort, and not vary stroke count too much, and end up with much lower stroke rates. If you want to focus on some metric besides stroke count/length, it should probably be distance/stroke, which is essentially the same thing.
I think you are confusing turnover with swimming ability. They are not the same. You can have a fast turnover and go fast, you can have a slow turnover and go slow, you can have a fast turnover and go slow and you can have a slow turnover and go slow. What really matters is applying your power to the water to go forward.
For instance I have a slow turnover, but a few lanes over from me, is a former olympian who has a turnover slower then mine. She leaves on the 2:20 for 200 repeats, me, well um, I’m almost at the wall when she leaves. In that same lane is a dude who looks like he is having arm spasms his turnover is so fast. He leads that lane and puts a bit of time on the slow turnover female.
What you should be asking is how can I increase my turnover while maintaining my power or how can I increase my power while keeping my turnover the same or how can I increase both my power per stroke and my turnover rate.
Agreed. I do focus on increasing my swim strength on the Vasa Ergometer. It is easy to see if you are pulling harding as your effort is displayed as Watts. It also tells you your stroke rate. I do sessions where I maintain a low stroke count of approximately 30/minute but concentrate on effort. On other sets I increase my stroke count to about 40/minute which does result in a drop in power per stroke. The overall pace is faster, however.
Brain, I am trying to keep my power per stroke up as my first goal. Then if I can keep this and do a little more turnover, great.
But, I seem to have problems as I get tired on power per stroke, so that is what I keep trying to focus on now.
Does this seem to be the correct order?
Dave
I think you kind of have to do a little bit of both. With the end goal of course to move further with each stroke no matter how fast you’re turning your arms over.
This is a tough question as the asnwer really is It depends.
If you are dropping power but increaseing your turnover does the clock say that is good or bad? If good then that is something to think about. If bad then maybe a different approach could be needed. if your turnover stays the same but you slow down later in the swims a new approach to those swims may be in order. imo it’s better to negative or even split the swims.
i think that answers your questions.
Thanks, that darn negative split words again.
Dave
Turnover is worthless if you are not getting anything for the strokes. In other words if you are sacrificing the finish just to re-engage in the pull phase its probably not going to help much. I would focus more on lowering the stroke count and then add a strokes in to see how it impacts your speed. You may be able to maintain 18 strokes per length, but become 5-10 seconds faster per 100. Trying to lower your stroke count will force you to become more streamlined.
Short swims like a mile race mid 70s to 80, longer swims and tris mid 60s to 70, really long swims it can get as low as 49 when i’m really dragging.
I wouldn’t say that at 60 - 65 you have unusually slow turnover, so probably nothing to worry about.
Lots of folks seem to have strong opinions on this, but you’ve got it covered if you up your tempo and keep your length then the clock should say you are faster. If the clock says you’re faster keep at it.
I do occasionally come across folks who have come from seminars talking about long strokes and they have taken things way too far. I coached a guy who had a turnover of 38 strokes per minute, not stroke cycles mind you, 38 strokes. I did 6 90 minte lessons with the guy with 6 90 minute workouts in between and after all that at the last lesson I gave him a tempo trainer set on 60 spm.
Off he went, problem solved the soluction was staring at me the whole time I just didn’t see it.