I’ve been doing a lot of rides in the 2-2.5 hour range lately. In the past, I have never taken any extra calories on days like this (which is perhaps not a good thing). But I’ve recently switched to a more “paleo” diet, so my intake of refined carbs has gone WAY down. I find myself feeling completely sluggish on the bike. I get hungry quickly and my HR is very low. Lately I’ve been doing rides at ~250 watts, 20-21 mph, but my HR is around 120 bpm. Most of the time I feel like pulling to the side of the road and taking a nap, and my legs have no energy. My coaching program starts in two weeks, so right now I’m just doing steady rides, no intervals or anything.
So should I be taking in extra calories on these rides? Do those of you who do some form of paleo find that you need more sports nutrition products than you used to? How many calories? The carbo-pro recommendation is 2 cals/hour/lb of body weight. That will put me at over 600 for this moderate ride, which seems WAY too high.
I don’t eat or drink on training runs, rides and XC skis of 2 hours or less. Once I get over 2 hours, I have to at east drink to get to 2.5 hours and eat also to get to 3 hours. I do all my training first thing in the morning right after breakfast, so I am well fuelled for all sessions. For the rare occaisions that I train mid day, I can only last 90 minutes without replenishment of some sort.
Yeah, that’s my general method as well, train right after breakfast. It’s just that now that breakfast consists of fruit and eggs rather than cereal and granola bars, I don’t seem to have the “breakfast boost” anymore. What does your breakfast usually consist of?
A triple espresso, and a large large bowl of oats with ground flaxseed with no fat yogurt and at least 500 mL of water, usually more like 750 mL. The total volume of the oats+yogurt combo is around 750 ml, so I stuff myself with around 1.25 - 1.5L of food/liquid before starting out.
My training partners joke that I am like a camel trying to cross the desert. Starting out is a bit slow (especially running), with all the food and liquid swishing around.
Hey, that sounds like a pretty good breakfast. Yes, definitely high on the glycemic index, much like my old breakfasts. I think it’s the lack of carbs at breakfast that’s doing me in!!
It is super high on the glycemic index, but I can get through a half Ironman in the 4:30’s with this breakfast, three bottles of salted gatorade on the bike, a bar and a couple of gels, and a few cups of gatorade on the run. so it seems to work for me.
All literature points to 2 hours being too long without cals.
I’m a ~500 cals/hr athlete on longer stuff. Plus ~ a bottle H2O/hour depending on weather. So for 2-2.5 hrs I’d mix up two bottles of my training liquid; Maltodextrin bulk powder at ~20% concentration (which keeps the osmolaltiy in ther acceptable range) and ~400 cals per bottle and add a few small scoops of Endurolyte. I make myself drink about every 20 minutes.
Many of the top marathoners have gone sub 2:10 on nothing or close to nothing. Especially in racing, if you are nearing the end (ie within 20 min), taking in calories can just slow you down while giving zero energy benefit before the finish line
Its all individual, based on personal calories consumption, sweat rate and how much you are topped up from the previous day. How come 2 hours as this magic cutoff ? What if each minute had 66 seconds. Then would it be 2 hours or 1:48 ? I bet you that the beyond 90 min, you start to slow down a bit anyway. For a 2 hour event, the question is, whether you slow down more from the activity related to digestion of calories taken in, vs how much you slow down due to depletion.
I’ve been doing a lot of rides in the 2-2.5 hour range lately. In the past, I have never taken any extra calories on days like this (which is perhaps not a good thing). But I’ve recently switched to a more “paleo” diet, so my intake of refined carbs has gone WAY down. I find myself feeling completely sluggish on the bike. I get hungry quickly and my HR is very low. Lately I’ve been doing rides at ~250 watts, 20-21 mph, but my HR is around 120 bpm. Most of the time I feel like pulling to the side of the road and taking a nap, and my legs have no energy. My coaching program starts in two weeks, so right now I’m just doing steady rides, no intervals or anything.
So should I be taking in extra calories on these rides? Do those of you who do some form of paleo find that you need more sports nutrition products than you used to? How many calories? The carbo-pro recommendation is 2 cals/hour/lb of body weight. That will put me at over 600 for this moderate ride, which seems WAY too high.
Any advice is appreciated.
-Sleepy in Illinois
You are obviously low on glycogen (hopefully, that’s the correct form of whatever it is you use as fuel); those are the classic signs of “bonk”. That says something about the value of the diet you are on for endurance sports. If you are averaging 250W for 2-2.5 hours, you’re probably burning about 800-1000kcal per hour. A two hour ride will burn up a pretty large percentage of your available glycogen, around 2000kcal, assuming your tank was topped off (and I’m betting it isn’t even close).
Advice: drop the diet, eat more carbs (even, gasp! refined carbs), take in fuel on the bike. I can’t imagine a good reason not to take in calories while riding.
Also, 250W for only 20-21 mph? Either you are sitting up, or your rides are rather hilly.
Many of the top marathoners have gone sub 2:10 on nothing or close to nothing. Especially in racing, if you are nearing the end (ie within 20 min), taking in calories can just slow you down while giving zero energy benefit before the finish line
Its all individual, based on personal calories consumption, sweat rate and how much you are topped up from the previous day. How come 2 hours as this magic cutoff ? What if each minute had 66 seconds. Then would it be 2 hours or 1:48 ? I bet you that the beyond 90 min, you start to slow down a bit anyway. For a 2 hour event, the question is, whether you slow down more from the activity related to digestion of calories taken in, vs how much you slow down due to depletion.
Why is 2 hours magical? Your body can hold about 2000kcal of glycogen (liver, muscle). I (at ~79kg) burn up about 135kcal/mile running. Ball-park estimate of 85% carb/15% fat utilization at race pace, gives me about 17.5 miles before I use up my glycogen. That’s about 2 hours. Those little s***s who run so fast burn far fewer calories per mile than do I, so they can do more miles. Add in some calories in your digestive tract from your last meal, and a 2:10 marathon with no race feeding is certainly feasible.
Ken, this is exactly my point. It is all personal. For some it might be 90 min, for other 150 min etc based on how well you are topped up, your expenditure rate and what is in your stomach to start off :-). I think we are agreeing with each other. I did not mean to question the 2 hour point for you personally, just the widely held belief that 2 hours is some sort of a drop dead number. Don’t forget that if you are burning fat, you can last for several hours longer (the whole idea of an Ironman in the first place).
Ken, this is exactly my point. It is all personal. For some it might be 90 min, for other 150 min etc based on how well you are topped up, your expenditure rate and what is in your stomach to start off :-).
And those on the paleo diet, apparently, can go about 10 minutes…
Also, 250W for only 20-21 mph? Either you are sitting up, or your rides are rather hilly.
Well, sometimes the head winds really drive the watts up. When I don’t have the winds, 250-280 watts nets be 23-27 mph.
I get your point about eating on the bike. I’m, as I like to say, “calorie-phobic”. It’s one of the big things I have to work on. I take it, from your plast post, that you don’t agree with the likes of Gordo and Friel on the paleo diet? What do you use?
I’m a ~500 cals/hr athlete on longer stuff. Plus ~ a bottle H2O/hour depending on weather. So for 2-2.5 hrs I’d mix up two bottles of my training liquid; Maltodextrin bulk powder at ~20% concentration (which keeps the osmolaltiy in ther acceptable range) and ~400 cals per bottle and add a few small scoops of Endurolyte. I make myself drink about every 20 minutes.
800 cals for this ride? Damn, when I made the original post, I was thinking ~200, and I thought that might be a lot! I have a lot of stuff to figure out! Thanks!
I am on a semi/quasi paleo diet - less mod to hi GI carbs than before, protein at every meal. If the session is less than 1.5 hrs, I need nothing, maybe a quick swig of water before heading out. If it’s a 2-3 hrs ride, I will often chug a boost just before heading out. I have found this to work very well, I usually don’t need to eat anything til about 2 hrs. Then I like to have some of each of gatorade or equivalent, water and dried apricots (yeah I know that seems wierd, but I’m trying to find something I like to replace gels, I just get sick of having them all the time). I do carry a gel and/or a bar just in case.
I guess I just don’t buy the 10min statement above, I can do a 1.5 hr run with nothing much in me except the nuts, dried fruit, or cheese I snacked on a few hrs prior.
I am on a semi/quasi paleo diet - less mod to hi GI carbs than before, protein at every meal. If the session is less than 1.5 hrs, I need nothing, maybe a quick swig of water before heading out. If it’s a 2-3 hrs ride, I will often chug a boost just before heading out. I have found this to work very well, I usually don’t need to eat anything til about 2 hrs. Then I like to have some of each of gatorade or equivalent, water and dried apricots (yeah I know that seems wierd, but I’m trying to find something I like to replace gels, I just get sick of having them all the time). I do carry a gel and/or a bar just in case.
I guess I just don’t buy the 10min statement above, I can do a 1.5 hr run with nothing much in me except the nuts, dried fruit, or cheese I snacked on a few hrs prior.
I was just trying to be funny about the ten minutes, since CCF said he feels like crap “most of the time” on his rides. The lower the intensity of the exercise, and the higher your store of glycogen, the longer you can go without fueling up. At moderate intensity, I probably have the glycogen stores to run nearly 30 miles.
I 2nd the GU gels. I don’t know what their magic potion mix is but those things really give me a boost. I like to have plenty of nutrition so I never get to the bonk stage. Trying to recover from the bonk never works for me.
