As I have said elsewhere, I am cool with a 5 mm thickness rule for wetsuits provided that it is properly enforced. But if they are not going to enforce, just let anyone wear anything made of neoprene.
Seems that some guys who are good swimmers, but perhaps not so good at running are up in arms that shitty swimmers will suddenly get a better body position. Well, I really think that 5 mm neoprene is already doing that .
There was some discussion about Uberbikes (ex P4) making shitting riders faster, and that racing should not be a shopping spree about who can buy the most speed…OK…whatever. Aerobars make shitty bikers like Lemond faster to the tune of 8 seconds winning the Tour de France. But those aren’t really good analogies cause I do agree that the wetsuit really does help the guy with bad body position way more than the guy with good body position (I’m all for no wetsuit on 78 degree days by the way…none of this measuring the water at 77.5 around a bunch of ice cubes…).
But if we’re going to be complaining about shitty swimmers having an advantage due to thick suits, what about all you guys running in supportive running shoes. You claim that the only reason for wetsuits is so we do not freeze and in theory I agree. However, the only reason for running shoes really is to keep our feet from getting all slashed and cut up, yet they have morphed into something completely different over time and allow guys who are not capable of running with no "outside assistance’ (in the form of posts, way too much padding, plastic shanks, orthotics etc etc etc) cover distances that their bodies would not allow. Next time you go to the local football field, I challenge you to run 5K barefoot, which in time is the equivalent of 1500m no wetsuit…
So this is the best analogy I could find. Everyone show up to race in Nike Lunar Racers which is basically running barefoot with a bit of padding to keep the feet from getting destroyed by running barefoot on ashphalt, and we have a fair deal.
In the mean time, either USAT needs a better and enforceable wetsuit rule, or give me the most buoyancy that the current rules allow.
Nike Lunar Racers are like Brooks Beasts compared to Vibram Five Fingers. Now those are actually almost like running barefoot.
(they’d be a bitch to get on quickly in T2 however
If that was the best analogy you could find, perhaps it’s not a very apt one?
There isn’t really a comparison. Shoes are meant to protect our feet and to keep us injury free. Aside from that for the most part the fastest shoes are pretty cheap. No one is worrying about an unfair advantage with shoes because anyone that competes can look to the winner and buy those shoes.
With bikes and wetsuits no one except the wealthiest wants a new killer app every year.
Like the others I do not buy your anology, thin shoes=faster running…But I do not see why all the fuss here anyway. Come on guys and girls, there are just a small % of you that are on these threads and even know about the water rover. You will have the unique opportunity to have this suit for at least a 1/2 season, mabe a full one before your competition gets a clue as to why you are coming out a couple minutes faster. It has always been the way of this sport, I remember in 1979 while I was atop the podium, and Tinley was in 2nd spot looking at my shoes. He said"What the hell are those things?" They were the locks off of a couple sleeping bag covers that I borrowed to make my shoes faster to put on. Of course he was a smart guy, a little pissed, but he had them in the next race. I think the AG ranks will be a little slower to react, so GO FOR IT!!!
And as to a thickness war, as in just about everything, there is a point of diminishing returns. Remember when EPO hit the scene? 55% HCT was great, so why not try 60%? Then 65%, but of course they started dropping dead from strokes and blood clotting. And I’m not talking about the mythical paddleboard wetsuit either, come on folks get a grip. Just like with the bike, the wetsuit must be a conforming piece of wear. That means no foam inserts, styrofoam pieces inserted, ect. My guess is that this new suit is getting close to that point where for some swimmers, it will max them out. Probably the better ones like myself, since I expiremented with 7mm a long time ago, and it was faster for me. I know of only one swimmer whos point was a 5mm full suit, and he was one of the fastest the sport ever knew, but derived a ton of speed out of his kick. Most great swimmers can go fast with or without their kicks, but not this guy.
And as to the thick arms, remember that the size of your forearm is the pulling surface if you are swimming correctly. That is why when I had my 7mm suit, I had 7mm forearms. It worked, period…Now the thought that having more rubber up the arm is interesting. I do believe it may help many of you out there by keeping it in the right position for a nice 90 degree pull. At the very least it is more rubber in the water for 1/2 the time, and thus elevates the body even more. ANd by doing all this in a two piece, it eliminates most of the constriction that a 1 piece of this thickness would have…
Well, except that a whole whack of you guys can’t actually run without supportive shoes or orthotics…like swimming in a thick suit, supportive shoes gives guys who can’t get their body in the correct position to run properly a chance to actually compete.
Shoes aren’t supposed to be for injury prevention…or are you guys buying the koolaid that the running shoe industry is feeding ya? That’s why a whole whack of people get injured…use the running shoe as a crutch to do more mileage than the body is actually structurally capable of naturally handling…sure it works for a while but eventually it all catches up. You can’t put skyscraper’s load on the foundation for a 5 story building…good on ya guys for getting outside assistance for your foundation (feet) :-).
ML, agreed that the Lunar Racers are actually like riding on plush pillows. Maybe the closest thing to running barefoot on grass when you are actually on pavement (freedom for your feet to do what they naturally should, but also the padding that you tend to get on grass). Maybe we need the no wetsuit and no running shoe off road tri and see who comes out ahead
Anyway, its Friday, so I thought its a good time for the runner crowd to have some fun too :-). I don’t really care either way, as I’m neither a runner, nor swimmer, just a guy that does all sports.
A better analogy would be recumbent bikes or, to a lesser extent, front wheel disks. Recumbents are just as safe as road bikes, but can be much more aero and faster. What about full bike fairings? I’m not sure the running shoe analogy works.
Personally, I think there needs to be a limit and I’d be in favor of USAT instituting a rule. I’m going to call my rep!
I was mainly countering the point from some swimmers who were saying that wetsuits allows really bad swimmer to get through the swim to the detriment of the competitiveness of real swimmers who don’t need that aid. Supportive shoes allows guys who likely can’t run without the support get through the run to the detriment of runners who don’t need the additional assistance. I’m not even talking about doing the sports fast…just outside aids that let people get through these sports
You beat me to it. Swimmers just like to whine because if they haven’t put in the time to be good at cycling and running then all they do is go backwards once their favorite part of the tri is done. In my experience, the best triathletes were solid at all three sports and didn’t really on wetsuits or expensive aero equipment to have an advantage. They were just solid three-sport athletes. So what if a 22 minute swimmer suddenly becomes a 20 minutes swimmer. They’re still going to kick you butt after you get out of the water.
Guys riding a P4 now have a decent advantage over me on my old aluminum tri bike, but when I’m fit–which would not be right now–they are going to have to ride that P4 at 25mph to beat me. I can live with that, because most of them wont be able to do it.
If the whiny ass swimmers don’t like it, they can do duathlons.
LOL! The last thing a swimmer wants to do is run TWICE.
use the running shoe as a crutch to do more mileage than the body is actually structurally capable of naturally handling
Not an analogy but I think this the better way of putting it: a wetsuit is a crutch that helps overcome poor swimming technique and the overbuilt running shoe is a crutch to help overcome poor running technique.
Here’s why I think triathlon’s approach to wetsuits is ridiculous.
I got this table off of a dive shop’s website:
**WATER TEMPERATURE (F) / TYPE OF SUIT RECOMMENDATION / ****RECOMMENDED THICKNESS ****** 80° + (Tropical Waters) Rashguard or Full Dive Skin .5mm - 1mm 70° - 79° (*Very Warm) *Fullsuit 3/2mm or 4/3mm 65° - 70° (Warm Water) Combo 3mm or 5mm 55° - 64°(Cool Water) Combo - Fullsuit 7mm or 7/5mm 48° - 55° (Cold Water) Combo - Jumpsuit 7mm or 7/5mm 40° - 48°(Very Cold Water) Drysuit 39° - Below (Freezing Water) Drysuit
Take a look at the table above and see what dive shops recommend for wetsuit thickness. Look also at what they call “cold water” and “warm water”. SCUBA divers get into 7mm suits when the water is below 64 degrees. At triathlon temperatures they’re in 3mm suits.
Open water swimming events generally don’t allow wetsuits, and when they do the rules specify a cutoff of 70 degrees – measured at 1 foot depth in the center of the course.
In fairness, open water swimmers don’t get on a bike after their swim: if it’s cold they get a nice fuzzy blanket and go into the warming tent. SCUBA divers probably go right to the bar. Triathletes hop on their bikes dripping wet and air-dry in a 25-mph breeze. But there is no way anyone will convince me that triathletes need anything thicker than a 3mm suit to stay warm on the swim.
Wetsuits, aero bikes, and really fast shoes – how far do you have to go to for it to be cheating? For shoes it’s pretty simple – they really don’t make you go faster. While it’s true that racing flats are lighter and may feel faster, you have to be in condition to take advantage: a 7-minute-per-mile guy wearing a pair of Air Pegasus will still be a 7-minute guy wearing a pair of Lunas (or whatever). Usain Bolt in high heels will still run a 9.58 (OK, maybe 9.69). For bikes the answer is established in the rules: – fairings are cheating and recumbents are just weird. But short of that, all the aero kit in the world still won’t make up for poor conditioning.
Wetsuits are different. They keep you warm and safe, but that effect has been overtaken by the performance benefit: they also help you float and compensate for poor body position – removing the very things that make swimming hard. In contrast to shoes and bikes, wetsuits help athletes overcome poor training.
Anything over 3mm is in excess of safety requirements, and is crossing the line in my opinion. If USAT is worth a damn, they’ll take a cue from FINA and make a tough call to protect the integrity of the sport.
Integrity of the sport? What does that mean. IMO, integrity would mean each leg of the tri would be about the same time for a pro.
Swimmers would love that.
I’d be perfectly OK with a 3 mm wetstuit limit as long as it is enforced! If there is no means to enforce, then the USAT rule is better than unenforced rule.
As for water temps, you can’t compare open water swimmers to triathletes with 4 percent body fat. Two different body types requiring different amounts of insulation to safely race…however, I do feel that 3 mm covers it (having been down in the sub 5 percent fat range). 5 mm more than covers it. Anything more is not required, but if there is to be a cutoff, every suit needs to be submitted and get on a USAT list of qual’d suits first. If not the current rule that allows Water Rover is much better.
Dev, I’d compare it to using a traditional bike vs. a fixie. On a traditional bike, you get some coasting time for your pedaling effort. On a fixie, you have to keep pedaling to keep moving.
With a thick wetsuit, you get coasting time for your stroke effort. Without a wetsuit, you stop kicking and moving your arms, and you pretty much sink.
