Shades of Richard M. Nixon. I guess my paranoid conspiracy minded friends are not so nuts…
"Former National Security Agency analyst Russell Tice, who helped expose the NSA’s warrantless wiretapping in December 2005, has now come forward with even more startling allegations. Tice told MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann on Wednesday that the programs that spied on Americans were not only much broader than previously acknowledged but specifically targeted journalists.
“The National Security Agency had access to all Americans’ communications – faxes, phone calls, and their computer communications,” Tice claimed. “It didn’t matter whether you were in Kansas, in the middle of the country, and you never made foreign communications at all. They monitored all communications.”
If you give an agency authority to spy on “certain” people without getting a court order or otherwise being montiored and made accountable, then I can guarantee that they will end up spying on pretty much anyone for any reason…
Last tri is gonna be pissed. He was personally assured that the spying was only on people communicating with people in countries with ties to terrorism.
Not surprising. This has been going on since WW2. Some eras have been worse than others. These programs that are often championed by so-called conservatives (in the name of national security) remind me more of Soviet-style governance than our “socialist” social programs.
Not surprised, or even upset. Remember Timothy McVeigh? My understanding is that comm is scanned for certain combinations of words, and flagged accordingly. Nitrogen or fertilizer and kerosene might cause a flag...OMG, they're onto this thread now. Careful what you type.
I voted for Bush twice. I think he acted with good intentions but I also believe he set a dangerous precedent for the Executive branch to act without congressional checks and balances. Some of the laws passed under his watch to protect us from “Terrorists” leave the door open for some serious erosion of our civil liberties in the future. Even the most die hard conservatives have to question the logic of some of his decisions.
Russell Tice, a former NSA analyst, spoke on Wednesday to MSNBC host Keith Olbermann. Tice has acknowledged in the past being one of the anonymous sources that spoke with The New York Times for its 2005 story on the government’s warrantless wiretapping program.
After that story was published, President Bush said in a statement that only people in the United States who were talking with terrorists overseas would have been targeted for surveillance.
“The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist.”
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hmmmm, don’t disagree completely, even though the article you referenced is leftist and alarmist. It’s the nature of govt, and I agree that while the right was largely mum on some of GWB’s sins, the left will be so with Barack. The program that this thread is about pre-existed GWB by many years. I’m sure there are changes that legitimately need to be made to surveillance programs as time and technology advance, and I don’t want to prevent those changes either. It’s a delicate balance that any president plays, but the upshot IS less privacy for us all.
The mischevious streak in me wants to mess with them a bit: The naked midget used a kerosene lamp to read about the earth’s atmosphere being mostly nitrogen as he produced natural fertilizer while on the throne.
I certainly acknowledge the need for monitoring when there is a reason, but carte blanche to monitor everything strikes me as wrong.
Your right, that article was not the greatest. I do feel that Bush, in his desire to protect America, ended up putting some laws in place that will in the long run be to our detriment. here are the ones I’m concerned with:
USA Patriot Act - A 342 page document presented to Congress one day before voting on it that allows the government access to your bank and email accounts, as well as your medical and phone records with no court order. They can also search your home anytime without a warrant.
USA Patriot Act II - This one allows secret government arrests, the legal authority to seize your American citizenship, and the extraction of your DNA if you are deemed a potential terrorist.
Military Commissions Act of 2006 - Ends habeas corpus, the right to an attorney, and the right to court review of one’s detention and arrest. Without this most basic right, all other rights are gone too since anyone can be detained indefinitely. Now anyone may be arrested and incarcerated and nobody would know.
NSPD 51 - A directive signed by George W. Bush on May 9, 2007, that allows the President to declare martial law, effectively transforming the U.S. into a dictatorship with no checks and balances from the Legislative or Judicial Branches. Parts of this directive are considered classified and members of Congress have been denied the right to review it.
Protect America Act of 2007 - Allows unprecedented domestic wiretapping and surveillance activities with a reduction in FISA court oversight. Probable cause is not needed. John Warner Defense Authorization Act - Signed by George W. Bush on October 17, 2007, this act allows the President to declare a public emergency and station troops anywhere in America without the consent of the governor or local authorities to "suppress public disorder.
Homegrown Terrorism and Radicalization Act - Passed overwhelmingly by Congress on October 23, 2007, is now awaiting a Senate vote. This act will beget a new crackdown on dissent and the Constitutional rights of American citizens. The definitions of “terrorism” and “extremism” are so vague that they could be used to generalize against any group that is working against the policies of the Administration. In this bill, “violent radicalization” criminalizes thought and ideology while “homegrown terrorism” is defined as “the planed use of force to coerce the government.” The term, “force” could encompass political activities such
In my opinion we would be better off with a little less perceived safety and a little more civil freedom. I just think this much invasion of privacy is a slippery slope, even when the initial laws where well intentioned.
You seem more versed on specifics in this area than I, but there is always a justification for these changes. I know at least a couple of those were pushed because of what GWB saw as a lack of ability to respond to Katrina. Makes one party super-majorities, and (as decried in another thread) the breakdown in balance of power, scary.
OTOH this is the direction we are going, you could almost overlay the UCMJ (Universal Code of Military Justice) on the whole country, and that is one of the reasons I did not make a career of the military. In the military the jobs, pay, healthcare, etc is controlled. In many ways it's an egalitarian society, leaders in racial integration, noone "poor" (or everyone poor), etc. The loss is freedom, you are subject to search anytime, (even you as a civilian if visiting a base) you have the healthcare provided, you can't wake up and call in sick, you have to go to "sick call" where a military doctor verifies you as sick. It's much like the larger government's approach to us as irresponsible, they not only don't expect that you will be responsible (and make rules(laws) accordingly), they don't believe you are responsible, therefore everyone is subjected to the same. management to the lowest level, teaching at the level of the poorest students, etc. That is what I fear America is becoming.
they don’t believe you are responsible, therefore everyone is subjected to the same. management to the lowest level, teaching at the level of the poorest students, etc. That is what I fear America is becoming.
Yes, this is what concerns me as well. The flip side to success is failure. When Government removes the ability to fail, eventually the ability to succeed will go as well.
