No sealant, no manufacturing variations, no temperature driven dimensional variations, no dimensional changes from repeated mountings/dismounting’s, no temperature related rubber “stiffness” variations, no sidewall deformation from braking, deformation from downward weight on the tires (rider + bike + all the usual junk we carry), and deformation from side loading due to cornering. You should stick to snow plowing on the bunny slope!
Seriously - it’s complicated, and I’m probably missing a few things!
I’ll add deformation over time as rubber tends to expand and dry over time. Id be curious how old some of those blown off tires are. Both in general age but also how many kilometers.
I have a 74mm tire on my city bike which after roughly 2 years and 5000km expanded to 80mm. Ignore the fact it’s a fat tire, what interests me is that nearly 10% size increase. I’d be curious how/if bead strength is impacted over time.
this is why one more test is needed: 72hr under pressure. beyond that i think you’re okay. the tire makers know they need to make their beads inelastic, compared to tires for hooked rims. i’ve got 4 sets of hookless rims for road, and tires that stay on this rims for months. never a problem. when i eventually take them off they come off with the same relative difficulty as when i put them on. but then i’m picky about the brand of tire i use and the longevity test is helpful in discovering if there are tire brands out there who aren’t as diligent or capable of making this tire.
I guess I can throw myself as a test for that tire.
I ride it on my 404s at 70-75PSI (I’m 210lbs+25lbs of bike). I’ve ridden that tire hard and fast. Hit pot holes, descended into tight corners.
I’ve setup my own stress course when all this came up. Pumped them to 90PSI and let them sit. Then setup some cones and dove hard around the cones at a reasonable speed.
I never have had a problem. Even when I flatted my rear tire after running over some glass, the tire stayed on (I was going about 25mph).
My sample size is one. But since people really seem to want to see that tire get stressed - I can say I’ve stressed it in the field.
About 8-10 sets of the 4 spoke wheels/disc wheels, where at least 4 of them were complaining they felt slower and we found out they were at the recommended tire pressures.
We performed several back and forth pressure / aero testing and when we put them at 5,5-6 bar they were faster then with 4 or 4.5. These guys are now on other wheels, all of them in the 75-80 kg weight category.
To be fair to HED which are like none existent in the larger part of Europe due to missing out on distributors, so I never had the change to even see their Vanquish wheels in live.
Let alone I had an opportunity to test them. Maybe @marcag has any experience wity them.
But with the knowledge I have now I would seriously doubt if they are as fast as they could be when they had a higher presure limit. But, again, this is pure based on speed taking in consideration using a 28 mm tire.
Comfort wise there is nothing wrong with lower tire pressure with a wider tire and when riding comfort goes over performance measured in speed.
But in a triathlon speed goes over riding comfort for me speaking on just wheels and tires.
I may have missed this in the many, many threads on this subject, but have EDub and Slowman ever said why they’re continually defending hookless? Is this just devil’s advocacy on a large scale or are their things you specifically like that you feel you can’t get from hooked? This seems like a really thankless task and I’m not aware of either of you being affiliated with a hookless wheel manufacturer so I’m curious why you’re such torchbearers?
Simple…while some of our partners are hookless companies we have other partners that sell mostly hookless on all of their bikes. It’s also a big part of the future of wheels. So while everyone else in the media just complain about it we are just trying to educated people on how to use it. With over 1 million plus wheels in the market it’s not going away.
I genuinely appreciate your honesty. When talking to your partners what is their main reason for the push to hookless, is it all about it being lower manufacturing costs, or are there other reasons?
Lets make sure you dont forget about the last part of what I said too… Regardess if we have partners or not we would still cover the subject… But to answer your question about what they say and what not.. They 100% honestly believe they are moving the needle forward in innovation and making better wheels. I know some people here wont believe that or they will disagree with that statement but that is 100% what they believe they are doing.
While the Tire companies and Wheel companies have had a lot of challenges moving forward together. I look at a hookless wheel and a tire that is made right for that wheel and I see a better made product.
The trick is going to be and always has been getting those two right all the time.
And this is the key part I get caught up on-no one has been able to tell me what it is about hookless that actually makes them a better wheel! Do they say they are a better wheel because a, b c and d, or what?
Cheaper to manufacture is the only tangible that ever gets presented…
I don’t care about blow off. I care about does the tire slip off in a turn after a puncture reduces pressure because now there is nothing holding the tire to the wheel. When you see a pro crash as the tire comes off in a turn, you’re assuming it blew off. It could have suffered a puncture a short time ago and is now at half the PSI needed to stay on in a turn. Hooks on rims also serve as a guardrail to keep tires on when they are going flat. All of the tires not blowing off at the correct pressure in your testing is proving my point. In a car chase video where the tires get shot or shredded, it’s after they lose their pressure that they come off the wheels and now the guy is driving on bare rims, and eventually crashes because of it.
Do they believe this or do they WANT to believe this because it’s much cheaper for them to make (and therefore bigger profits - because I can’t really see that those wheels are cheaper)? Honest question as I have no bone in this fight at all.
If there’s a way to test without killing somebody I’d love to see it.
That being said, you can’t really mount a tubeless tire without putting one bead in the channel. Which isn’t likely to happen in a deflation-while-riding scenario.
I wouldn’t be surprised if any tubeless tire (hooked or not) is tougher to roll off than a tubed hooked clincher, because of this.
If takes 200 posts of smoke and mirrors and still no reasonable answer, then your hypothesis seems correct. The manufacturers try to sell us this crap to make more money by saving on manufacturing costs.
I appreciate the honest response. Given that backdrop—why wouldn’t your approach be along the lines of “Guys, we are very skeptical too, and as you’ve pointed out the negatives do appear to outweigh the positives, but a number of companies who advertise with us have told us that they are not abandoning hookless in spite of this, so here is how to do it safely”?
I say this because—I think what a lot of us are struggling with is that you appear to be saying hookless is better when (as pointed out ad nauseam) the only group it appears to be better for is the manufacturers (and even then—only a small handful have turned to it).
Creates a lighter wheel (this is also what makes it cheaper to make) Which has been passed on the customers
Stronger impact strength ( these benefits are mostly in the wider rims and tires when it comes to super hard bottom outs or what we call pinch flats now they are called pitch “hits” since most people arent using tubes in those larger tires ) But they do ring true in the some of the road rims as well.
Provides better tubeless fit (assuming you’re on the right tires) Comparing older carbon hooked rims with new hookless you just have more connected points when the tire is seated right.
Provide aerodynamic advantages when you get into the wider tires 28 plus.
Ride comfort and rolling resistance. ( lower pressure is nice )
Why you wouldn’t want hookless.
If you just feel like that hook is going to give you comfort at night ( trust me I get it)
If you want to run whatever the fastest 25 mm tire is on the market according to BRR at 90 - 95 PSI and feel like that has changed your mindset and game.
Dont buy hookless. It’s not for you.
Lets keep in mind the reason I started these tests.. It wasnt to convince people to buy hookless. It was simply to test out the “What if’s”..
