Guess what… Carbon require a certain NM rating at every bolt touch point.. you should go back to full steal bikes…it’s “safer”
Do you own or have you ever own a set of hookless wheels for road?
I could not resist jumping back into the hookless fray. The two threads have talked around the “advantages” related to hookless, but they are either theoretical, immaterial, or false.
- Lighter - theoretical, but not proven true or material in practice
- Cheaper - theoretical, but not proven true in the marketplace
- Stronger - theoretical, but does it matter (in other words, is hooked strength far in excess of practical needs)
- Tubeless fit - inferior, because hookless have higher blow-off risk
- Aerodynamic - proven not true by some contributors here
- Ride comfort - no different than hooked
- Rolling resistance - no different than hooked… until you need to exceed max pressure thresholds, then they are slower
- Safety - they are safe when operated within stated limitations; unknown when limitations are exceeded
- Education - huge red flag: why should a product need special education to be safe???
I honestly cannot see why the debate even exists. Yes, tubeless are safe for the road when maximum performance is not a driving factor. But when maximum performance is part of the equation, then they are either slower or use-at-your-own-risk. Why buy a performance product that is objectively inferior at performance?
Caveat: I have a set of ENVE 4.3 hookless wheels with 30mm tires on my road bike, and I love them. I typically run those wheels at 65 PSI, and the comfort is exquisite. But I ride the road bike for fun, not max performance. I have a set of hooked Black Inc wheels on my new tri bike. I have 25mm/28mm racing tires that I will run at the pressure dictated by the road conditions. So, when I race Gulf Coast 70.3 next month, they will be 80 to 85 PSI (I have not decided). There is no universe where I would consider running Continental Grand Prix 5000 TT TR tires at 85 PSI on anybody’s hookless wheels. That would be foolish.
I would not buy hookless or HED Vanquish wheels for a triathlon bike because they are not optimized for performance.
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This struck a nerve. NEITHER ARE YOU. You think because you did some testing that in no meaningful way mimics real world riding that you’re the holder of all the facts? And the rest of us are idiots?
To your later comment to another poster if they’ve owned/ridden hookless. To speak to that in case you were going to ask me, since by now you know I’m one of the firm anti-hookless people on this forum. I have, and I believe they almost killed me. Enve Foundation wheels and their own Enve SES tires, to recommended pressure with good sealant. Hit a pothole descending very fast. Rim sliced open. Explosion, no seal, complete blowout. White knuckled brake job and I was somehow able to keep it upright and come to a stop (although I tipped over at the end once I stopped). I thank my lucky stars all the time that it didn’t end up worse. I’ll never descend the same again. I personally believe that the hookless design sliced the sidewall high up and caused this. the hole could not be sealed even once stopped with more sealant added due to how high on the sidewall it was. It was during a group ride and everyone came over and looked at the tire and was like WTF how did that happen?? Very abnormal and I don’t believe anything except the edge of the hookless rim could have done that given where the slice occurred. It may not be a proven fact, but it is my opinion that hookless nearly caused my death/serious injury so I take issue with all this discussion. This isn’t fun and games. who gives a shit about 1 watt more aero. But if one person in this world suffers because hookless is 0.1% less safe, then it isn’t worth the hassle. the gains/benefits just aren’t there.
If I’m entitled to my own opinion, then you aren’t permitted to contradict anything I’ve said here. I fully admit my belief that hookless caused my blowout is my opinion, and not a fact provable say in a court of law. However, when descending at 40mph I need confidence in my equipment and hookless will never, ever give me that based on my experiences. You can opine that hookless is safe option for the road, but I vehemently disagree. And you can say you give zero shits, but what if someone has a blowout and causes you to go down with ‘em? If I’m doing a group ride with someone on hookless rims (which, newsflash isn’t that many because everyone feels the same safety concerns as I do) I consciously keep my distance when speeds are high. Call me crazy, but have a hookless rim (maybe) almost kill you, and come talk to me then.
life according to @exxxviii 
Thanks for the ted talk bother
First off.. @rrheisler has NEVER done a single ounce of testing on hookless… I have.. So anything related to that please direct those questions to me. Happy to try to answer of those ( with in reason )
And with over 1.2-1.3 million road hookless wheels in the market place.. you should give up group rides.
In 5 years are we going to have more or less manufacturers making hookless wheels? Are companies going in one direction or another? Are the current hookless manufacturers staying the course?
I don’t have a dog in this fight and I’d be an absolutely clueless consumer were it not for this forum so I’m really just curious. I happened to watch/listen to The Nero Show this AM and noted the new Giant Propel comes stock with hookless Cadex wheels (that did not get a great review from Jesse).
No plans to ride stolen bikes, either. Thanks.
Another disappointing yet completely unsurprising response. Distancing myself from this thread once again but just wanted to share my story.
Im sorry, but what do you want me to say that is different.
that’s pretty much my situation. the thinnest tires i ride on the road (i ride only road and gravel these days, not tri) are 29c. but those ARE my performance tires. so, an ENVE or CADEX or ZIPP wheel with a 23mm inner bead width, run at 65psi or 70psi, is my performance rig.
for just riding around i’m on 32c mounted on rims that are 25mm inner bead width. for all these use cases - 32c for everyday riding, 29c or 30c for performance, hookless is fine. i’m with you 100% on the limits of hookless for tires smaller than that, and i think for a lot of folks that covers tt or tri. i don’t know that it will always be that way for tri, but it is that way today.
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For starters you could have a civilized discussion and adress the points being made instead of saying shit like “give up group rides,” “go ride a steal bike,” and “have you ever ridden tubeless.” Are you taking these discussions personally?
I miss the old ST. Used to comment daily but this environment is one of the reasons I rarely get involved in discussions anymore. The other, and probably also related, is that the environment chased away most knowledgeable experts leaving low quality discussions.
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Bolts require a certain NM rating at every bolt touch point regardless of whether the frame or handlebar is carbon. And that is something easily solved with a torque wrench, and carbon has clear measurable benefits over steel. Which hookless does not have over hooked. BIG DIFFERENCE.
And in my case, yes, I have owned hookless for road, but got rid of them after realizing that shops where “knowledgeable” enough to put non compatible tires that put my life at risk.
Ditto to both of these points. My engagement is a fraction of what it was a few years ago.
And I’ll add a third Old ST point - this new forum platform is the very worst I interact with on the World Wide Web. It is terrible. This latest defect of losing browser history context is driving me batty. It’s like some gaslighting Black Mirror nightmare distorting my reality.
It also seems like a cringe way to engage with your current or potential customers. Can’t help but question the quality and objectiveness of any future technology and product reviews.
Well the canyon article has 0 engagement, in almost 1 day , so it is measurable.
Fair enough I spousse — I let frustration get ahead of the conversation in a few spots and that’s on me. But I want to name something that keeps happening in these threads, because it’s the source of that frustration: we publish test results or an article without “taking a side”, and the response is to treat us like we’ve taken one. We haven’t. This whole article was written because of the dooms day drama that was being talked about on the forum and since no one was willing to do any pressure tests I figured I would. I asked the forum what they wanted and I took my own thoughts about it and simply did some test and showed the results. That’s what the article did. It simply showed the results of those tests. What we have said and will continue to say about hookless
Hookless has a narrower scope, it requires education, and it’s not the best choice for any tri/TT applications in which a rider wants to ride a smaller tires at higher pressure. That hasn’t changed. Where I push back is when every cycling failure gets attributed to hookless by default. And you guys come in all hot and heavy with pitch forks. Like “Got ya”
And yes when you say things like “ ALL THE MORONS “ or ALL THE FOOLS “ that choose hookless. Yea Im like… “Screw you” with blanket statements like that..
Everyone that holds one of those pitch forks never wants to admit that everything as limits, Carbon frames need torque specs. to not break, Just like bolts. Tubulars needed proper glue. Hooked wheels have tire pressure limits. Wheels have weight limits . Every system in cycling has constraints that require user knowledge. In the talking points of the conversation and when I bring it up you all get SO mad..
Hookless isn’t unique in that — it’s just newer, so the knowledge gap is way bigger. That’s exactly why we’re covering it. Someone has to cover it from both sides and it seems like because we do so you guys FUCKING HATE us for it.
What we’re not going to do is tell you hookless beyonds it limits is anymore dangerous then anything else on a bike pushed beyond its limits. And you should never buy it — because that’s not what our testing shows. And we’re not going to tell you it’s great and everyone should switch — because the performance case isn’t there for a lot of riders that still choose smaller tires and higher pressures. If that middle ground is unsatisfying to you personally , Im sorry, but it’s the honest position and we’re going to hold it. Because that is what we have seen.
Here are some of the things that have always made me wonder.
Hookless is everywhere now
Outside of ENVE doing some of their latest wheels with Micro Hooks none of the major brands which are some of the largest manufactures in the world I might add at this time are going in another direction that bring in “Hooks” to their wheels.. They just aren’t. And I have asked them all over and over again And according to ENVE they aren’t moving away from it either. So what does that mean? Does it mean they are stupid? I dont know.. Maybe. Maybe not but they arent moving away from it at this point.
Tire size and Tire Pressure
Most professional athletes are on hooked wheels in the pro compound. I have yet to see a tire smaller than 28 on a professional triathlete that is at the top of this sport. Unless they are riding a KU which requires a 25mm I rarely see a tire under that anyways. And when I ask about tire pressure 99/100 it’s in the 60’s . So when you all come in and talk about the importance of 25mm tires at higher pressures because they are “Faster” and thats why you cant buy hookless . Im sorry but the top end of the people actually going fast don’t seem to agree with you. And I just find that really personally funny because now the guys that are going fast then ever.. are “fools”
The coverage will continue on both sides. We have more tests planned and we’re pushing manufacturers for data like we always have. Believe it our not we do ask the hard questions If the results change our view, we’ll say so.
I’ll keep the tone more productive going forward — the discussion is better when everyone, including me, engages with the actual points not just solo opinions based on emotion.
And Im sorry if you all dont like the “New ST” I really am , we do our best around here and will continue to do so with our faults
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I tried to answer all your questions WITH BOLD ITALIC
In 5 years are we going to have more or less manufacturers making hookless wheels?
That’s a tough one..I would say Slightly more manufactures ( like 1 or 2**) You are even seeming the direct to consumer Factory outlets selling them now***.*
Are companies going in one direction or another? Are the current hookless manufacturers staying the course?
Outside of the 4 wheels ENVE produced with “Micro hooks” no one is backing away from hookless. And ENVE claims they don’t have any plans on making other wheels that aren’t hookless. I ask everytime we have calls
I don’t have a dog in this fight and I’d be an absolutely clueless consumer were it not for this forum so I’m really just curious. I happened to watch/listen to The Nero Show this AM and noted the new Giant Propel comes stock with hookless Cadex wheels (that did not get a great review from Jesse).
Which part of the wheels didnt Jesse like?
Some of the over all general thing that I see.. is More people are understanding hookless. Which is a great thing because without that it 100% can be unsafe. ( like all limits ) Tire size is getting bigger across the board in general. With that those Average Tire Pressures are sitting around that higher 60’s range. Tire companies are making much better side walls these days and that it very very important to TUBELESS . And alot more bike brands are shipping TUBELESS and HOOKLESS without inner tubes..
Hookless, Hooked and Tubless in general is still a pain the butt to set up and clean up
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Now that combo of posts is a quality Ted Talk. Touche.
The bolded part is the very first time I have seen a ST principal make this statement. This is HUGE. (Maybe you did, and I missed it, but it seemed like for the past year folks have been gaslighting this statement.)
When I say “I feel bad for all those fools on their hookless wheels,” it is mostly hyperbole, like Mr. T saying “I pity the fool.” And it needs an asterisk - many people ended up on hookless wheels because that is what their bike came with or they were unaware of hookless. I am in that camp with my road bike, in both categories. But the fool (acting without wisdom) is one who wants maximum performance and intentionally chooses hookless wheels, despite all the available research.
I thought this pair of tests was pretty cool. It reminds me a little of the bike aero wind tunnel comparison many years ago. Though, I am bummed that the protocol could not produce any blow offs. I would not want to ride hookless wheels at 120 PSI over rough pavement and railroad tracks, so you get a bye.
A few more of my random thoughts…
“I have yet to see a tire smaller than 28 on a professional triathlete that is at the top of this sport.”
You may want to review your recent Slowtwitch fastest bikes at Kona articles. Many of those pros are running 25/28 or some variation. I’ll have to take your word for it on pressure, because that might make sense on Kona’s roads. But smooth pavement is a wholly different equation.
“And Im sorry if you all dont like the “New ST” I really am, we do our best around here and will continue to do so with our faults”
I don’t like the software, and I have been vocal about that. But I also know you guys are doing your best to whack the bugs. I am concerned about the current state of the participants and threads, and I don’t have any magic feedback for that. When I first came here over 10 years ago, I was getting back into triathlons after a few decades away. I asked a lot of questions, and there was a wealth of amazing and helpful experts in many disciplines that led me to the importance of a fit, kit choices, wetsuit choices, power meters, helmet choices, training tools & approaches, aero upgrades, and most recently, pedals. It was amazing, and a huge part of why I went from a guy amazed he merely finished a 70.3 to now competing regularly for 70.3 WC slots. Experts from FLO, Tririg, Silca, HED, Premier, Canyon, etc. that contributed regular were a huge benefit. Then others, like pros, semi-pros, experts in coaching and optimization rounded out the field. Many of those folks are long gone. Today, it seems like current state of the forum might be hostile or unhelpful to newcomers like I was.
I did a fun exercise creating a table of all the major wheel makers (TdF suppliers plus a few others). Hookless is very much in the tiny minority of all suppliers. But Zipp and ENVE probably account for a huge proportion of the volume. There does seem to be a slight correlation between weight and hookless. But there is also a correlation between price (high) and hookless.
Criteria for table: I picked the highest-tier, deepest (non-rear disc) each brand offered. All are disc brakes. In cases where some are offset sizes, that is what it is. Sizes range from 60mm to 88mm, because that is what they offer; therefore weights are not apples-to-apples. And I had to do Google price conversions on the few that did not post USD pricing. (There are some amazingly light wheels out there and some amazingly cheap wheels out there.)
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He had the same problem as everyone else-blow off flat. Hookless are just plain and simply dangerous, not sure how many times we need to see these failures for it to be accepted.
And yet Jesse was riding the wheels within the limits-set up exactly as per cadex guidelines. Was Justin Riele riding beyond limits when he suffered a blow out causing a crash?