Here I tend to agree, given than most consumers don’t even know what they are buying and how to properly inflate tires.
Youre simply dismissing stories because they didnt happen to you. I bet if you had an issue, you’d want someone to hear YOUR “anecdote”. I use that word bc you did but I think it’s a poor choice. It implies it’s a joke or there’s something funny/unserious about it.
Secondly, your passion to defend tech that has no measurable benefits is fascinating, why please tell!
You didn’t understand what I meant. I ain’t defending anything, people can just choose whatever and I couldn’t care if I’m riding hookless or hooked. I just happened to ride hookless on my TT because it came with that wheel tech. And on my gravel I bought hooked, so there’s that. But before calling some tech unsafe based on some personal reports, everything has to be properly assessed. And that’s true for every field. Because this is becoming just an emotional battle between two sides, with no middle ground of reason.
You are coming across as heavily biased and you seem to make “facts” as you move along: “And blowoffs happen with every tech, every day” can you provide any evidence about tubulars, hooked tubeless and clinchers blowing out as you claim? Whereas if you simple Google it for hookless tubeless tires, a lot of videos, stories, anecdotes, pop ups.
We have used clinchers and tubulars for decades and this has never been a topic of discussion.
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That’s not 100% true..
Clichers probably right… … But Tubular’s? Really not coming off? Not imploding wheels due to over inflation pressure?
PSI was a big topic for Tubular’s.. so was “GLUE” and how to keep those tires on..
Tubeless also opened a massive conversation of “How too’s” including side wall cuts.
Disc Brakes where introduced maybe to help RIM brake over heating and the lack of wet stopping power on carbon rims. And we still have people to today demanding the DISC Brakes should be banned..
You are starting to become more biased on this conversation then anyone if you want to take this approach to “Things in the past has have no problems or conversations”….
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Are you even serious now? Come on.
Just an example from a quick search, from 10 years ago:
https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/tire-blow-offs-what-is-your-experience.349735/
And I am supposed to be the biased one? Again, re-read what I wrote, I ain’t defending anything. I’m just stressing that the conversation on the topic is too emotional based on some anecdotes, without accounting for how many people ride hookless every day without issues. Similarly to what’s happening with clinchers or hooked.
I’d be interested to see the incident % of all three categories, with the causes accounted for to distinguish between user errors/tire and or wheel manufacturer/tech type. But we don’t have that yet, and probably never will I guess.
Laughable. In what universe do you think that’s realistic to get? We aren’t talking solely about the pro peloton here. You want that metric for all users over the world?? Even if someone gave it to you, sounds like you’d attack the validity of the data because it’s all “anecdote”.
How many times do I have to go over the same thing? Sorry, but do you guys actually read?
I’m not attacking anectodes per se because they are still evidence, but they have to be taken in consideration one by one.
You might say you had a blow-off that was caused by the rim, in your opinion. Fine. Let’s dig deeper and then we maybe find out that maybe you overinflated them, or something else that invalidates your statement. What then? Are we still supposed to stand by that anecdote. I don’t think so, and yet the idea stick in people’s head by then. And I read plenty of cases like this, not only for hookless mind you, where person A blames tech X and then it turns out it was a user error, or unrelated to tech X but another component.
Oh and you forgot to notice I don’t expect that to ever come out:
But we don’t have that yet, and probably never will I guess.
Laughable. In what universe do you think that’s realistic to get? We aren’t talking solely about the pro peloton here. You want that metric for all users over the world
You are all over the place…so we should listen to anecdotes.. but, make up random theories to ignore the anecdote that could showcase a problem we don’t want to know about?
Who ever talked about theories?
Whatever, keep on going, ain’t losing more time on this discussion if that’s the level.
In the end the market and demand will chose what will last the test of time, like it always has. The rest will disappear. But if the tech were truly unsafe as you claim, the number of crashes and complaints would have been such that manufacturers would have removed those rims from the market entirely.
I don’t see that happening.
You’re missing one critical part. User error is a part of why there are concerns with hookless. Therefore, a failure because of user error is a valid issue, and shouldn’t be dismissed which is what your dialogue leads me to think your position is.
The idea is that the margin of error is so small, on paper, the normal tolerance to provide a safety blanket for modest user error is not there. This was a big part of Josh at silcas position. He postulated he’s seen tires blow off at like 80psi and the hookless limit is 73. That’s just such a tight margin! Someone’s pump could be inaccurate, the whole temperature argument. That’s technically user error but that’s part of the idea here, the potential for user error to occur is inherently higher with a hookless system. Yes the testing being done is working to counter that argument but gotta factor that in.
The other point Josh raised is that even if you are able to operate within that narrower safety margin (which a lot of us probably can), you’re not gaining any performance, you might actually be losing some performance, and you aren’t getting materially cheaper wheels. That is, Zipp, Enve, and Cadex have hookless, but there are other high-end brands with hooked wheels that are comparable in price, there are also a bunch of less-known brands with hooked that are cheaper. So, hookless isn’t even making wheels cheaper in practice.
Why should you accept the narrower safety margin in exchange for nothing?
That said, if Zipp, Enve, Cadex, or indeed any credible manufacturer are willing to give me some wheels and they can certify that they’re made to current ISO dimensions and tolerances, please PM me. Extralight, you can keep your wheels.
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Agreed one million bajillion percent. We can quibble about whether tires blow off or not FOREVER, but it’s all in the context of this larger question which should never be forgotten in these debates.
That’s an interesting question, why is there a perception that the gain is “nothing”?
It’s not a perception - Hookless offers “nothing” for TT or Tri. In fact, for many riders (depending on their weight) it will be a negative.
Haven’t you been following these Threads??
Some absolutely incredible work from Ronan here that I know a load of you will appreciate:
Here’s a gift article for you from Escape Collective: Introducing Escape tyre testing: Get ready to rethink accepted wisdom
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I suggest using something to get the tire at the same angle one would corner in or somehow challenging hookless in the x axis.
Imagine looking down at the wheel going down the road. X axis is left right (cornering or bumps), y is forward backwards (accel or braking).
This test just did Z axis, vertical bumps. That and Y axis is easily the best scenario for a tire.
X is tougher.
You fat shaming now?
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I already did.
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Regarding this test: great attempt, it all adds to the pool of available information.
Then, question to anyone:
Is there a relatively easy way to test overinflated hookless wheels (similarly to how Eric is trying to do) but doing a test that semi accurately simulates heavy cornering loads while hitting a few typical few potholes, but without putting the test rider in danger if a tire rolls, burps, pops, or otherwise comes off?