Forget about it until you can crack :14 (from a decent push) for 25 yards.
This is a hypothesis I am considering, but since this is ST, I am going to present it as a rule. The idea being if you can’t swim that :14, you don’t have the mechanics for a sub hour IM. So my premise hinges on your 25 yard mechanics being similar enough to your 2.4 mile mechanics that such predictions are possible.
Tear me up boys and girls!
I have hit an hr. I will try your hypothosis tomorrow and see what I can hit a 25 on. Have not done an all out 25 I think ever where I was timing…I am 54 and a late oneset (early 40’s) swimmer that does open turns : (
Forget about it until you can crack :14 (from a decent push) for 25 yards.
This is a hypothesis I am considering, but since this is ST, I am going to present it as a rule. The idea being if you can’t swim that :14, you don’t have the mechanics for a sub hour IM. So my premise hinges on your 25 yard mechanics being similar enough to your 2.4 mile mechanics that such predictions are possible.
Tear me up boys and girls!
I’ll go with it. I just wonder if you can make the same “rule” for all 3 sports… I’m not from a swimming background, but could you compare the 25 to the 100 meter dash? So if you run 100 meter dash in :xx it means you would break 4 hrs in a marathon (example)? Bike, 40k TT is too long, what would be an appropriate distance, something short and standard in the velodrome? Anyway, hope your hypothesis works, love it when things simply correlate, makes life less complicated for me! Good luck
Lydiard used 200m as an indication of basic speed. If you couldn’t go better than 25s for 200 you were better to focus on long distance as you likely wouldn’t break 1.50 for 800.
Does that help?
Dave, before I had some shoulder and neck injuries I swam 54:30 minutes at Roth (likely short) and 56 minutes at IMC Penticton (accurate)…and as crazy as it sounds I never swam 100m faster than 1:20 ONCE in my life. Even after my shoulder separation I did 58.xx at IMLP (also wetsuit). The wetsuit and fitness go a long way with a even if you don’t have good stroke mechanics.
14 seconds or 25 yards seems quite fast. Now if you are talking no wetsuit, then I’m with ya.
absolutley, and I think Daniels in his book has correlations for times as well. just surprised that swim doesnt
tell me more…
So my premise hinges on your 25 yard mechanics being similar enough to your 2.4 mile mechanics that such predictions are possible
Sorry, until recently, I would have been an exception to your rule. It’s taken several weeks of work with a swim coach training me as a 200m swimmer to crack 15s for 25m (14s/25y = 15.3s/100m). Last summer, I swam some 19-minute Olympic splits and comparable HIM splits. A sub one hour IM swim would have been a cakewalk.
I see how technique plays a role, but isn’t a 25 yard sprint more a test of anaerobic ability? I’ve seen fast twitch types muscle their way through a quick 25 with horrendous technique. Maybe 50-100 would be a better indicator…
I bet this rule holds for most people. I’m probably an outlier: aerobically talented but anaerobically abysmal. It’s the same story with cycling and running. I have a Cat 1 FTP but Cat 5 sprinting (according to Coggan’s chart). I could run a 32 minute 10k tomorrow, but most preteen girls could outsprint me 
Makes sense I suppose … There are other gauges too. A 2:45-50 200 yd free when you haven’t swam in 6 months or so is one of mine 
Then give me 3-4 months & hopefully I can knock off some 30K months and I should be good to go.
What about a true open water gauge of fitness & readiness?
Sorry, until recently, I would have been an exception to your rule. It’s taken several weeks of work with a swim coach training me as a 200m swimmer to crack 15s for 25m (14s/25y = 15.3s/100m). Last summer, I swam some 19-minute Olympic splits and comparable HIM splits. A sub one hour IM swim would have been a cakewalk.
I see how technique plays a role, but isn’t a 25 yard sprint more a test of anaerobic ability? I’ve seen fast twitch types muscle their way through a quick 25 with horrendous technique. Maybe 50-100 would be a better indicator…
I bet this rule holds for most people. I’m probably an outlier: aerobically talented but anaerobically abysmal. It’s the same story with cycling and running. I have a Cat 1 FTP but Cat 5 sprinting (according to Coggan’s chart). I could run a 32 minute 10k tomorrow, but most preteen girls could outsprint me
Yes, I think a better option would be 200m swim. Pick the number that you need to hit to do a sub 60 min IM, but this will have a much larger aerobic component to go with technique.
I’d say a good test would be 8 x 200 yd on a 3 min sendoff. If you can go under 2:45 on all of them maybe you have a chance.
A 25 sprint or an all out 200 doesn’t say much, especially a 25. Just because a 1hr IM swimmer can swim a 14s 25yd doesn’t mean that the reverse is true.
In my opinion the mechanics of a 25yd sprint and a 2.4mi swim are entirely different at least for me.
I don’t know what my 25 yard time is but my best 50 is 28 seconds. If I were to swim a 25, my stroke rate would be around 85 spm with a 6 beat kick and no breaths. I swim a 21 min 1500yd with a 70 spm stroke rate, two beat kick and breathing every 2 strokes.
We have a crossfit type guy with a ton of muscle who comes to our masters group once in a while and can barely swim a continuos 200yd with a horrible stroke yet he can go 32 seconds for a 50.
nothing to put here except for…
I like it.
I think there is a lot of truth in this and believe it does correlate for all 3 sports.
I don’t have any studies for now… but I like it.
Problem is then you introduce turns into the equation. A long course 50 would be my choice.
Geez, I haven’t done a 25 yard sprint for time in ages. I’ve been sub 60 in several IMs and plan on doing it again. Not sure I’m willing to test your 14 sec hypothesis (and I can’t explain why either).
Forget about it until you can crack :14 (from a decent push) for 25 yards.
This is a hypothesis I am considering, but since this is ST, I am going to present it as a rule. The idea being if you can’t swim that :14, you don’t have the mechanics for a sub hour IM. So my premise hinges on your 25 yard mechanics being similar enough to your 2.4 mile mechanics that such predictions are possible.
Tear me up boys and girls!
The time might be slightly off but the premise is certainly correct.
(I might be inclined to go with 14.5 or 15 for the 25. There are probably a few children and older swimmers who might not be able to break 14 for 25, but who could break 60 for an IM swim).
Consider:
If your swim form does not support a 14.5 second 25, then why would it support a 60 minute IM?
If you have the swim form to swim a 60 minute IM, then why wouldn’t you have the form to swim a 14.5 second 25?
Many people compare swimming to running but over look some basic questions:
How much time did you spend learning to walk and run growing up?
What would your swimming be like, if you had invested the same time learning to swim?
What would it be like if you had to swim to school, and to the corner store? What if you played water polo at lunch with your friends in elementary school?
Everyone would be able to swim 14.5 for 25 yards, if this were the case.
Problem is then you introduce turns into the equation. A long course 50 would be my choice.
Outside of you the only other person I know that’s close to be under an hour swam a 50m in 32.23, off the blocks. She was 30 seconds over an hour at Penticton in '12.
I went 1:07 at IM CdA off absolutely zero swim training, while trying to swim at an easy effort level, and I’ll do 50yrds in ~26 from a diving start, for whatever that’s worth.
Its a good idea. Sure there is some muscleing involved in going 14 secs for 25m but you cannot muscle through it without pretty fine technique. Try to remember that 12 year old girls frequently do these times without any sort of remarkable strenght.
The only “problem” I see of it is that you can use a different technique to go really fast. Straighter arm under water, lot higher RPM, strong kick. If you can go under 14 using a fine distance stroke with high elbow and only a decent kick you are fine for going under the hour!
Forget about it until you can crack :14 (from a decent push) for 25 yards.
This is a hypothesis I am considering, but since this is ST, I am going to present it as a rule. The idea being if you can’t swim that :14, you don’t have the mechanics for a sub hour IM. So my premise hinges on your 25 yard mechanics being similar enough to your 2.4 mile mechanics that such predictions are possible.
Tear me up boys and girls!
So what would the valid 25m swim time be then? 15.5? Which would make sense, my practice swims last summer were all in the 1:05-1:08 range and I have never gone under 19 off the wall.
As Dev mentioned, a wetsuit completely screws everything up.
However, for non-wetsuit swims, you are probably about right. 14 secs for 25 yards really isn’t all that fast, and if you have good mechanics it can be done pretty easily with a distance stroke as opposed to sprinting it. but you do need to have some stroke mechanics to do that.
The corollary is definitely not true. I’m not a distance swimmer, I’m out of shape anyway, and know for a fact that I would struggle to do a 60 min IM swim right now. I’m going sub14 for 25 SCM from a push in our masters practices.