He looks good! He is not full ST-approved due to his hand position (see: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2155534;search_string=hand%20position;#2155534 ) but other than that he is spot on.
He obviously worked to bring his head towards his hands and forearms together to create the smallest frontal area as possible. He has a slight up angle on his extension aka the Praying Mantis as well. The more I tweak my position and take it outside to feel the effects on my perceived wind resistance, the more I am realizing it is more important to decrease your front exposure than anything else assuming you can handle it for 112 and still get off and run a marathon.
he doesnt look stable to me. but what do i know
Yeah, he’s rockin’ a bit. I’m guessing that he’s still getting used to the new position and isn’t comfortable being that narrow just yet. We’ll see how it works for him at ToC.
DANG! That looks awesome.
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It’s hard to critique someone who destroys all of us, but it does look good.
The quoted 38 watts savings seems pretty amazing. Also from the VeloNews article: “According to Colorado Premier Training CEO Steve Owens, Danielson’s position changed in three main ways: he came up higher, his hands and forearms retracted, and his elbows widened.”
I didn’t try to find any photos showing Danielson’s old position. But seeing the new one in the photos and video in the article:
- His torso is pretty darn horizontal for something that is supposedly a “higher” position
- His elbow are pretty darn close for something that is supposedly a “wider” position.
Again, I don’t know what his position looked like before, but with the tilted forearms and the “retracted” hands and forearms, his elbows are a lot lower than would be indicated by the pad height.
Also, in the video it looks like he keeps remembering to try to keep his head low. I wonder if he’ll be able to keep it low for a full-on TT effort. With an aero helmet that position would look really good. I see a lot of “low” body positions, even among the pros, where everything looks good except for their head sticking up way too high. I think maybe “retracting” the arms back (along with the mini-mantis tilt) may help put less strain on the neck when trying to keep the head low.
Rik
In Reply To http://velonews.tv/?articleID=2589
Looking at his forearms, he is probably going to be in trouble with the UCI police. His extensions are not positioned so that his forearms are in the horizontal plane.
** *1.3.023 ****For road time trials and the following track **events: ****individual and team pursuit, kilometre and **500 m a ****fixed ****extension may be added to the steering system; ****in this instance, only a **position where the forearm is in the horizontal plane is permitted. ****The distance **between the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket axle and the extremity of the handlebar **may not exceed 75 cm, with the other limits set in article 1.3.022 (B,C,D) remaining *unchanged. Elbow or forearm rests are permitted (see diagram «Structure (1B)»).
The red letters are not mine, but the UCI’s.
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTkzNg&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=34033&
Nothing as disheartening as having a UCI commissair take a look at your TT bike and tell you that you “need to fix this and that” 5 minutes before the start. It has happened before and some commissairs do not care if the rider is Dave Zabriskie or a 15 year old youth. You better try to convince the 'Sheriff" at least a day before that you need those extensions beyond the 75cm limit (and where exactly the extensions end ). Do not risk it thinking nothing will happen.
Sergio
It’s hard to believe that someone with his dimensions isn’t getting the head closer to the hands. I’ve not had success in decreasing my drag with the mantis tilt unless I bring the bars to within 4 or 5" of my nose…to say that he’s getting 30 watts out of that change is probably a significant inflation or there is something else we’re missing.
Chris
Nothing as disheartening as having a UCI commissair take a look at your TT bike and tell you that you “need to fix this and that” 5 minutes before the start. It has happened before and some commissairs do not care if the rider is Dave Zabriskie or a 15 year old youth.
And nor should they. The rules applied in a competition should be the same irrespective of a rider’s status.
It is a rider’s responsibility to adhere to the rules for that competition. You can’t complain when a commissaire puts the bike on the measuring jig and it doesn’t comply. Make sure it complies in the first place.
As a commissaire, it is no fun telling someone their bike doesn’t meet spec.
It’s impossible to predict. It is amazing what makes the differences. It is completely individualized. Everything from body shape to pedaling mechanics to what your race suit is made of all add up to watts saved or lost. I had a wind tunnel session at the end of last season. At one point we discovered that my hands 4 inches apart (in aero position) was a 3.97 watt savings over my hands together in aero position. Of course HUGE savings are made dropping the headset, but you can quickly reach a point of diminishing returns, because too great a drop and you start sacrificing power. I tested four different aero helmets as well and the results there were amazing. Tom has a huge drop in his set up as you will see on any pro cyclist or triathlete. For me, hands up (ie mantis position) was costly. I tested slightly below horizontal (like Jan Ulrich’s old setup) and horizontal, and was significantly faster at the horizontal position.
It really amazing how what’s fast for one is detrimental to another. Altogether, from baseline to end of session I got an astounding 87 watts at 25 mph.
It’s impossible to predict. It is amazing what makes the differences. It is completely individualized. Everything from body shape to pedaling mechanics to what your race suit is made of all add up to watts saved or lost. I had a wind tunnel session at the end of last season. At one point we discovered that my hands 4 inches apart (in aero position) was a 3.97 watt savings over my hands together in aero position. Of course HUGE savings are made dropping the headset, but you can quickly reach a point of diminishing returns, because too great a drop and you start sacrificing power. I tested four different aero helmets as well and the results there were amazing. Tom has a huge drop in his set up as you will see on any pro cyclist or triathlete. For me, hands up (ie mantis position) was costly. I tested slightly below horizontal (like Jan Ulrich’s old setup) and horizontal, and was significantly faster at the horizontal position.
It really amazing how what’s fast for one is detrimental to another. Altogether, from baseline to end of session I got an astounding 87 watts at 25 mph.
Are you saying that changes in the wind tunnel saved you 87 watts at 25 M.P.H.? I guess there is no polite way to ask this, but how bad was your stating point? What changes were the best energy savers?
Nothing as disheartening as having a UCI commissair take a look at your TT bike and tell you that you “need to fix this and that” 5 minutes before the start. It has happened before and some commissairs do not care if the rider is Dave Zabriskie or a 15 year old youth.
And nor should they. The rules applied in a competition should be the same irrespective of a rider’s status.
It is a rider’s responsibility to adhere to the rules for that competition. You can’t complain when a commissaire puts the bike on the measuring jig and it doesn’t comply. Make sure it complies in the first place.
As a commissaire, it is no fun telling someone their bike doesn’t meet spec.
I agree with you. I was trying to emphazise that you should not expect a commissair to treat you in a different way because you are not a Pro or viceversa. That was a warning and not a grumble of course.
I do have to say that I have seen some very strict and some very lax UCI commissaires, this differences happen even in the Pro tour. Dave Z knows something about this http://pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=5347 . That is why these matters should be solved at the previous technical meeting and not 5 minutes before the start.
There is no excuse to show up with a TT bike off the limits, but I see this happening every year at the youth and junior nationals. Last year at least half a dozen kids in my son’s cat were sent to their wrench tents to fix either their seat or extensions. There is a good reason I made up my own measuring jig. This is very important in particular when the rider is growing.
I do have a couple of questions for you if you dont mind:
-
What do you think about granting morphological exemptions to Master and Junior riders?
-
Is Danielson playing with fire with his forearms in that position?
Best wishes,
Sergio
No worries! I had no idea I had so much to gain. I’m a bigger guy, 6’4" and 182. I have always had a flat setup. I have been “fit” before to my former bike, but never in the tunnel. I got a new bike October, and took it immediately to the tunnel for fitting. They dropped me 6cm on the headset which was by far the biggest. They tried to go as much as 8cm, but I could not comfortably ride that low. I’m returning home tomorrow and can get the actual values to you if you like. Helmet was a big factor too. Also, another huge factor once in the dropped position was the “fast head” position. That’s where the head is extended and dropped. That has taken some practice, but it’s second nature now.
What do you think about granting morphological exemptions to Master and Junior riders?
I’m 5’ 6" and it’s really tough for me to ride with a saddle that’s 5cms behind the BB. I made it work (well, based on my results at Nationals, not exactly) last year by riding with an Adamo, but I have a hard time with that saddle. We just don’t seem to have been made for each other.
Last year, leading up to Masters Nationals there was so much conflicting information circulating on forums and even from USACycling officials that I spoke with about how the morph exception process would be handled and, more importantly, WHEN it would be handled. Ultimately, it was stated that you could seek a morph exception just a few minutes prior to your start time. But then you’d be up the creek if it wasn’t granted. The attitude was pretty much, “you can ask for a morph exception if you want to, but don’t.” All the mixed signals and screwy interpretation nonsense really needs to be cleared up. And what are we to make of Levi and Danielson riding positions like those? I saw 50 bikes put to the test against the jig before masters nationals. I guarantee you that neither Levi’s nor TD’s bikes would have passed. They were putting the level on anyone whose forearms seemed visibly out of level. Why the double standard? We’re watching these guys on Versus all season long and they’re racing those positions in UCI races … but we go to a race with a position like that and we’re screwed. It doesn’t make sense. They are mostly stupid rules that need to be changed. But at the very least, apply them universally.
Thankfully, JC says he has something new in the works that might be a bit less radical than the Adamo, but similarly effective in helping the UCI-challenged among us. I’ll be anxious to see it.
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Well said!
“The rules applied in a competition should be the same irrespective of a rider’s status. It is a rider’s responsibility to adhere to the rules for that competition. You can’t complain when a commissaire puts the bike on the measuring jig and it doesn’t comply. Make sure it complies in the first place.”
as i’m sure you know, the rule states that the proper protocol for an ME is to ask for the tests prescribed for 1.3.013 and 1.3.023 at the presentation of the license.
how many commissaires agree to perform the test when asked? not many, from what i’m hearing. in fact, what i heard a lot last year was that a height standard was determined by a lot of commissaires, 5’10" let us say, altho i don’t know if that’s precisely it. if you’re under that you get x.013 but not x.023. if you’re over that, you get the reverse.
is that how it is USA Cycling is executing the rules?
the one thing that is not spelled out in the rulebook is, what is the amount you can move the saddle forward if an ME is granted? to 3cm behind? to 1cm behind? what determines it?
i know these rules better than 95% of the commissaires. it’s not quite as cut and dried – and certainly not as uniform – as you paint it.
With respect to TD and his new position , I say “good luck”. The guy has a well documented history of bizarre behavior, overtraining and in general disappointing those who have put faith in his admittedly enormous talent. i know, I know, I couldn’t hold his wheel for five minutes…but the dude has a strong history of poor decisions and then blaming his failures on others…
Nothing as disheartening as having a UCI commissair take a look at your TT bike and tell you that you “need to fix this and that” 5 minutes before the start. It has happened before and some commissairs do not care if the rider is Dave Zabriskie or a 15 year old youth.
And nor should they. The rules applied in a competition should be the same irrespective of a rider’s status.
It is a rider’s responsibility to adhere to the rules for that competition. You can’t complain when a commissaire puts the bike on the measuring jig and it doesn’t comply. Make sure it complies in the first place.
As a commissaire, it is no fun telling someone their bike doesn’t meet spec.
I agree with you. I was trying to emphazise that you should not expect a commissair to treat you in a different way because you are not a Pro or viceversa. That was a warning and not a grumble of course.
I do have to say that I have seen some very strict and some very lax UCI commissaires, this differences happen even in the Pro tour. Dave Z knows something about this http://pezcyclingnews.com/...ullstory&id=5347 . That is why these matters should be solved at the previous technical meeting and not 5 minutes before the start.
There is no excuse to show up with a TT bike off the limits, but I see this happening every year at the youth and junior nationals. Last year at least half a dozen kids in my son’s cat were sent to their wrench tents to fix either their seat or extensions. There is a good reason I made up my own measuring jig. This is very important in particular when the rider is growing.
I do have a couple of questions for you if you dont mind:
-
What do you think about granting morphological exemptions to Master and Junior riders?
-
Is Danielson playing with fire with his forearms in that position?
Best wishes,
Sergio
-
I have no strong opinion on the rules. The rules are what they are. Morph exemptions can only apply if the rider meets the morph standards irrespective of their division. For riders in the USA, USAC released a document to explain it.
http://www.usacycling.org/...cycleRegulations.pdf -
I have not seen any instructions to Commissaires here in Australia about such a change and how it should be interpreted (but I am only a lower level commissaire).
However,*** if**** I were asked to interpret the rules as previously posted*** (without any such interpretation advice having been given), I would consider the forearm/hands as kind of like a tube/cylinder, and as long as I could draw a horizontal line through the tube/cyclinder (i.e. one that is parallel to a horizontal plane that goes through the wheel axles), then it would be OK by me.
I can’t really tell from the video but looking at this pic, if from a better side on view, if I could draw a horizontal line that falls within the red and blue line, then I would see no problem with it.
edit: because of the photo angle, that blue line is more “horizontal” than it appears. But if I had to guess, I’d say it was OK.
“The rules applied in a competition should be the same irrespective of a rider’s status. It is a rider’s responsibility to adhere to the rules for that competition. You can’t complain when a commissaire puts the bike on the measuring jig and it doesn’t comply. Make sure it complies in the first place.”
as i’m sure you know, the rule states that the proper protocol for an ME is to ask for the tests prescribed for 1.3.013 and 1.3.023 at the presentation of the license.
how many commissaires agree to perform the test when asked? not many, from what i’m hearing. in fact, what i heard a lot last year was that a height standard was determined by a lot of commissaires, 5’10" let us say, altho i don’t know if that’s precisely it. if you’re under that you get x.013 but not x.023. if you’re over that, you get the reverse.
is that how it is USA Cycling is executing the rules?
the one thing that is not spelled out in the rulebook is, what is the amount you can move the saddle forward if an ME is granted? to 3cm behind? to 1cm behind? what determines it?
i know these rules better than 95% of the commissaires. it’s not quite as cut and dried – and certainly not as uniform – as you paint it.
Oh I understand that the local interpretation and assistance may be found wanting at times, no question. I make no assertion that the rules will actually be applied consistently. That is up to the relevant governing bodies to lift the overall level of professionalism in officiating ranks. Often one of the problems is a lack of officials (here in Australia they are mostly volunteers) to perform all of the necessary tasks and sometimes things like having someone permanently devoted to deal with the paranoid antics of riders who are trying to push the limits isn’t always possible.
It’s a bit like doing the junior gear rollout checks. You’ll always get a Dad who argues about it (“but it passed last time”).
At least at the UCI World Masters Track Champs, there was an official manning the test rig at just about all times. Even if you checked it early, it still needs to be validated just prior to start and the bike then must go onto track side (so no last minutes attempts to modify can be made).